Some Morelia's

[Australis]

Funny how no one posts pics of them, cause i sure as hell know if I saw one I would take photos.
I might add I probably travell more than you do in a year, in a week. I see more snakes a week in the wild than most people do in their lifetime!

Well thats good phatt01, so by that reasoning of yours, you should have squillions of snake photos yeah?

I can think of a couple of talented photographers on this very forum that have probably forgotten about
more snakes theyve seen, than ive actually seen in my time, that rarely post photos on forums.
APS isnt the be all to end all of anything like people seem to think on this thread. :lol:

 

[ihaveherps]

This makes good sense to me, thankyou

My only issue however, is with the percentage of offspring that are "varying degrees of the initial genetic possibilities". If I were looking for pure locality animals, especially to breed, these animals that look standard but carry possible wild morphs are now as usueless as any mongrel hybrid. They'll never be bred back to a pure, simple local morph, and unscrupulous breeders may sell them off as "non-line bred" locality-morph pure animals, only to throw strange and wonderful morphs a few years down the line when bred with a genuine local-pure morph.
Admittedly it's a niche problem, but a problem none-the-less, and one that could potentially affect those wishing to keep their animals as true to local and original colouring as possible.

ummm ..... thats a contridicting post.... locale morphs are the result of genetics that must (because of the locale aspect) originate in the wild populations, therefore even the extreme locale morph has the possibility to occur naturally in the wild, its just that via selection, we choose to increase the opportunity for these already present genes to be expressed. All in all these animals carry only the genetic material already present in wild populations. Your view seems to revolve around the assumption that all wild type animals are plain... the bumblebee bhp, albino darwin, albino olive, melanistic darwin... are all wild caught animals, and are by definition, wild type animals. Its a concept that seems difficult for people to wrap their heads around.

 

[TrueBlue]

SnakePower,-
no it will also cast doubt over pure darwins as well. You will end up with crosses that look like and tax out to pure darwins but are not. It will end up as a hell of a mess.

phatt01,-
tri stripped carpets and jungles are far more common in the wild than you would think. Some of the best examples ive seen have been wild animals.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Its already a hell of a mess. Especially if you dont have them crawling around in your backyard. I guess you are lucky when you live in Queensland.

 

[MatE]

I dont have a camera with me 24/7 but have seen tri stripped carpets in the wild and single stripes.Just because i dont have photos doesnt mean they dont exist.My mate found a tri striped carpet at his place a few years back that people would love to have,but sorry no pics.

 

[Kersten]

Lol what's with the idea that everything which hapens has to be documented in a picture? I have no shots of my birth....but I'm preeeetty sure it happend. Maybe it didn't though.....maybe I hatched out of an egg......slithered out of the primordial ooze....good God WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!?!?!?!?!

Oaky, moment of lightness passed.

Seriously, we had the habit of taking pics of every animal that we saw a loooong, long time ago. By the time we realised there was such an interest in hypos, axanthics and tri stripes the moment had passed (you all with kids will know what I'm saying....lots of shots of the first, some of the second, none of the third unless they win the Nobel Peace Prize). As True Blue and others have worn their fingers to the bone typing this over and over have said....they are everywhere. And generally speaking are much better examples of the trait that is found in captivity. Which in some cases isn't so much me talking up the wild types as me talking down the captive ones....

 

[zobo]

hang on a minute isn't one of the favourite sayings on this site 'photos or it didn't happen'?

LOL

I also find it amusing that all these 'morphs' are so common in the wild yet no-one who has seen them has a SINGLE decent pic???

C'mon I've seen more pics of yetis and aliens than I have of wild 'morphs' LOL

 

[Kersten]

And that saying is exactly the problem at times

You'll have to excuse the poor quality of the shot as i's really the only one we have, but we took this pic the night before last of an unfortunately deceased "hypo" which is a poorer than the norm example of the "morphs" we find in this area.....but hopefully it'll shed some light on what we're all trying to say here....

 

[dee4]

Lol what's with the idea that everything which hapens has to be documented in a picture? I have no shots of my birth....but I'm preeeetty sure it happend. Maybe it didn't though.....maybe I hatched out of an egg......slithered out of the primordial ooze....good God WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!?!?!?!?

technically yes you did:lol:

 

[Kersten]

:lol: Scary thought init?

 

[SnakePower]

SnakePower,-
no it will also cast doubt over pure darwins as well. You will end up with crosses that look like and tax out to pure darwins but are not. It will end up as a hell of a mess.

If you are right Rob, it really is a shame as I know a lot of breeders will only breed the albinos with other NorthWestern carpet/Darwin stock, including myself. I don't believe in making hybrid or crosses. I only breed within each animals supspecies. Sometimes locality specific, other times not locality specific, but always only pure. To think that the Darwin Albino's will have a cloud of doubt over them at any time is a sad thing indeed!

Like I said, people have a right to breed whatever they want. Buyer's have the choice to buy from whoever they want. I just hope that the breeders that keep to breeding pure stock are not too affected by those that choose not to. I guess it then comes down to reputation, as that always carries a lot of weight. Which in this case is a very good thing!

Zac.

 

[Drazzy]

I don't get the direction if this thread

But anyways good luck with the mongrel snakes.

 

[Lozza]

I just hope that the breeders that keep to breeding pure stock are not too affected by those that choose not to. I guess it then comes down to reputation, as that always carries a lot of weight. Which in this case is a very good thing!

Which would be a shame for new breeders who have not had the chance to establish reputation, even though they possess pure stock

 

[megrim]

ummm ..... thats a contridicting post.... locale morphs are the result of genetics that must (because of the locale aspect) originate in the wild populations, therefore even the extreme locale morph has the possibility to occur naturally in the wild, its just that via selection, we choose to increase the opportunity for these already present genes to be expressed. All in all these animals carry only the genetic material already present in wild populations. Your view seems to revolve around the assumption that all wild type animals are plain... the bumblebee bhp, albino darwin, albino olive, melanistic darwin... are all wild caught animals, and are by definition, wild type animals. Its a concept that seems difficult for people to wrap their heads around.

I'm not arguing that these line bred morphs don't exist in wild populations, what I'm suggesting is that these interestingly morphed animals are a minority. Basic plain animals make up the vast majority. Hence why a 'coastal carpet' is traditionally a simple carpet pattern, and not a double-decker-super-albino-vertical-quadrupal-striped pattern.
I'm trying to point out that really, by line breeding in captivity we're slowly widening the gap between wild caught animals and captive bred animals.
For us, a unique looking morph means a bit of extra cash, in the wild, more often than not, it means lunch for a hungry kookaburra.

I think the point I was initially trying to make, that I'm not sure you understood, is that line breeding interesting and extreme morphs is just as destructive to those wanting to keep wild-type-looking animals as breeding hybrids, especially with limited access to fresh wild-caught stock.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I don't know why those snakes are being called mongrels? More like designer carpets. They are clearly in a class of their own. I would be stressed out knowing that they are around too if I had a whole collection of line bred locality animals that don't come near them in the looks department. It would be a shame if people could get mongrel albinos for a fraction of the price of what people are asking for these rare pure locality animals. That would really annoy the people that invested the initial money to purchase these rare beauties. I wonder what would people choose when they have the option to purchase albinoes at a reasonable price instead of these over inflated prices over the last couple of years? Would people really ask that many questions if some of the big guns in the hobby start to suddenly breed very reduced patterned animals? Or wil they just think that they must have bred them because they have a good reputation? They would of course never have animals in their collection that are of dodgy descent? I am just thinking out loud, no need for answers to these questions! I guess the snake world is full of great people with lots of integrity that would never ever break the law. The fact is that most people could not give a stuff about the provenance of an animal if it ticks all the boxes of what they are looking for in a snake! And if it costs less than another one they would not think twice about buying it!

 

[MatE]

Here is one i prepared earlier lol.This is a wild snake that came into contact with a not so native dog,and she has a stripe from head to tail.She was the most placid carpet ive ever held for a wild snake and didnt even defend herself.

 

[The Devil]

Does it really matter if SOME people go down the designer snake track. It's not as if these designer snakes would ever be release into the wild.

Also if most if not all of us had designer snakes just think of how easy it would be for National Parks to identify ones taken from the wild......

 

[stuartandconnie]

why not

nar go 4 it

 

[megrim]

I would be stressed out knowing that they are around too if I had a whole collection of line bred locality animals that don't come near them in the looks department.

I'm beginning to think this might be a rather large part of the issue for some people.

 

[disasterpiece7.0]

I have to say I think there is room for both parties here. You guys that are swearing black and blue by sticking to 100% purity are going to be the ones making money if things do get too far mixed up with hybrid scenes. You'll be the ones with the reputation and you'll be the ones people go to for pure snakes if they're also serious about keeping a pure collection.

I'm not 100% against hybrids for things like jags. I am however very much against anyone who breed jag - coastal and then sells all the sibs as pure coastal. No-one can be 100% certain about where jags come from except the man himself. I personally would like to see all jag siblings euthanised on hatching. May seem harsh but I see jags as becoming as popular here as in the states etc in good time, For every jag - whatever clutch there will be roughly 50% non jag mongrels.

I also like my pure animals pure and plan on keeping locality specific and line bred animals of the same subsepcies. I hardly see the point in crossing things with bredli since the red isn't going to show up. Or daimonds and jungles to get average looking diamonds or funny looking jungles. Some may be decent looking but 99% of the times they're inferior to their pure parents.

As far as the albino situation goes I have to agree with Rob that there will be a shadow of doubt above all albinos carpets in a few years. Again, it'll be people like you guys that will be the only reputable sources for pure albinos.

Basically I think people just need to keep a good record of where all their animals have come from. If you have a full history of who bred their animals I think we should be able to keep things relatively sorted. I don't think pure animals will go out the window, just need to be extra careful who you're buying from.

Sorry for rambling on.