Some Morelia's

[edgewing]

Being in the early days of this hobby, I can't really say what I want apart from Australian snakes (I like them). That is the reason I came into the hobby and this is probably where I'll stay.

Although some of those little dragons can be pretty moreish

 

[tempest]

I haven't read the entire thread, nowhere close to it actually. I think they are beautiful looking snakes, taking them on face value, regardless of what they are. What I do want to ask, and excuse me if it's already been asked, but why, QLDMORELIAS, did you first lay claim to them being a mate's line and then later claim that they were something you were working on together? Is it because less people were opposed to them than you originally thought? Why not just be upfront from the start? Again, sorry if this is off topic or has been asked before... 34 pages is way too many pages to read, I only got to as far as about page 10. Just wondering

 

[QldMorelias]

The photo's are a mates line,and they are his animals. However there are a number of us working with siblings.
I thought only a small group would be against them, and that has proven to be the case. There have been tons of requests for any offspring that we produce, and we'll probably have surplus animals next season. I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about. Every one of us are breeding animals for the pet industry. Many won't like that statement but it's the truth. All the animals bred by amature herpetologists and swapped or sold are purely for pets. They hold no importance for wild populations. Some like to feel they are in it for a nobler cause, and maybe they are, but the animals they hold in private collections are not part of it. If you live in a state where it is legal and you want to produce designer animals go for it and good luck. If it's illegal in your state bad luck, you need to change the laws.
I have enjoyed the impassioned pleas from some of the purists. None have yet mentioned the spirit of the ANZAC's as a reason not to hybridise but they have come pretty close. Seriously.

 

[Kris]

holy smokes Batman.........Supermans identity may have been blown.

 

[Vixen]

holy smokes Batman.........Supermans identity may have been blown.

:lol: Settle down I won't have much room in my sig soon for more funny quotes.

 

[Kris]

I'll see what I can do.

 

[Kersten]

Vix, I'll say this just once. Please don't encourage him, he's hard enough to live with now.

Greebo it's okay, we can live with a little mystery (not that it's much of one) at least now as he rides off into the night we can still turn to eachother and say "Who was that masked man?".

 

[QldMorelias]

Shenanigans??
Greebo, your half right, no not half, your partly right. I have quite a complex personality, you could almost call me schizophrenic. So to keep columbo and the lynchmob at bay the executive committee took a vote and decided to allow a group photo.
We hope this sign of good faith with end the speculation and allow us to get on with the business of debating the merits of crossing your subspecies.
Remember kids, they are never, ever going back in the wild so it really doesn't make much difference does it.

 

[Vixen]

they are never, ever going back in the wild so it really doesn't make much difference does it.

That is not the point in the slightest..

What I am worried about is goons that will, yes WILL, not might, label these snakes as pure. They then get sold on some unsuspecting person, who then breeds them with their actually pure animal, then they get sold again and bred, etc etc, and the mess is just going to get deeper and deeper.

Its already been proven that there is no honesty where hybrids are involved, just look over thread again.

 

[ihaveherps]

lol.... Vixen, all the vehement denials when asked about this alias were bull-dust.... the rest of the drivel they posted should be taken in the same vein.... not worth the bandwidth....

 

[natrix]

It's funny this whole hybrid/crossing thing & I sorta feel like I should care, but I really don't give a toss what people cross with what . I thought I was a fence-sitter but I can't even find the fence . Cross 'em , fine . Don't cross 'em , fine.
I don't plan on doing it myself though.

 

[Khagan]

That is not the point in the slightest..

What I am worried about is goons that will, yes WILL, not might, label these snakes as pure. They then get sold on some unsuspecting person, who then breeds them with their actually pure animal, then they get sold again and bred, etc etc, and the mess is just going to get deeper and deeper.

Its already been proven that there is no honesty where hybrids are involved, just look over thread again.

If one was truely concerned about the purity of an animal would they not just seek out legal wild caught locality specific animals, or an extremely reputable breeder with stock tracing directly back to wild caught animals from the same location?

I mean it's down to peoples own common sense, if your after a 100% pure animal and just go with Mr. Random Joe rather than some reliable option it's only your own fault. It's probably a bad example, but same with dogs.. If your after a pure bred do you source out something with papers or go to a backyard breeder with no proof?

 

[chilli]

There have been tons of requests for any offspring that we produce, and we'll probably have surplus animals next season.

i think this is the basis of the thread. a lot has been said about the honesty of breeders and being forthright with the truth when it comes to selling 'hybrids'. are we going to see that with these animals, i mean, are they being sold as jags, being the progeny of smuggled animals, or are they being sold as ( ha ha ha ) reduced pattern hybrids. some won't care, but on the issue of credibility, this whole thread's purpose seems to be," let everyone know jags are here, we'll call them something else and hide under a veil of secrecy, we'll say we might have the animals in nsw,qld or nt (so as to be real vague about the jurisdictional location of them) and then we'll put them on the market.... hope we fool customs".

i know customs and npws seem not to care about smuggled animals, and this probably encourages smugglers as it has with gtp's, but isn't this thread facilitating this sham?

it is funny how much effort and money the federal government puts into exotic birds, where the numbers being smuggled is but fraction of the number of reptiles, and the amount of money involved is miniscule in comparison.

 

[m.punja]

If one was truely concerned about the purity of an animal would they not just seek out legal wild caught locality specific animals, or an extremely reputable breeder with stock tracing directly back to wild caught animals from the same location?

I mean it's down to peoples own common sense, if your after a 100% pure animal and just go with Mr. Random Joe rather than some reliable option it's only your own fault. It's probably a bad example, but same with dogs.. If your after a pure bred do you source out something with papers or go to a backyard breeder with no proof?

wild caughts aren't that easy to get and not all species are available wild caught. It will come down to more selection while purchasing, you'll have to do more homework and ensure the honesty of the seller but it will ruin the market for those who are unknow (all those people who have put themselves in a position to be breeding pure bred lines over the next few seasons will have to struggle even harder to get a name for themselves) and will cause even more doubt over pure bred morphs such as the stripped diamonds.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

I, like so many others, have have been watching this thread since it's inception. Wow, who needs to watch 'Home and Away'!

As this topic has been done to death so many times since I joined up (forgot to mention, I just passed my one year anniversary of being an Aussie reptile keeper, Happy Anniversary Azza!) I'd like to refer back to the only thread IMO that represents a fair and balanced view to the actual divisions on the lines of to hybrid or not to hybrid. The sticky post poll from NCHERPS at the top of the Australian Snakes section.

The poll is still open and the numbers say it all:

513 votes.
49.71% against crossing.
50.29% for crossing.

Of course, this poll is representative of APS members only and not the herp community at large or the general population who may or may not ever keep a python. I have made a funny observation in my time here. This 50/50 split is very remnicient of the division inside the American political system. On one side you have the conservatives, very vocal, very aggressive in pursuing the agenda they support. "NO" to change, if you are not with us you are with the terrorists, etc. On the other hand, you have the liberals. Often mousy, side line sitters, extremely difficult to drag into a 'duke it out, knock down kind of fight'. Belief system is as strong as the conservative side but tends to demonstrate more flexible views and opinions.

I have always found it funny how people can get so caught up in bickering about minutae and form long lasting divisions and prejudices, both against others' beliefs as well as against individuals themselves. That's funny wierd, not funny haha. Oh well, that's life.

In conclusion, I stand by my original assertion that I think the snakes in the original post are spectacular specimens. My opinion on the subject of hybrids (incase somene gives a rats), you are free to choose. I'm stoked that so many people are obsessive over the issue of purity. It is comforting to know that there are many people on here you can get animals from that you can trust in what you are getting. My own breeding collection is locality specific (I bought all my snakes from lines of the very people who have posted in this thread, the more conservative side) and will remain that way. I have nothing against mongrels though, I am one.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you buy hybrids, then Al'Qaeda wins.

P.S. Hey Rob, that reduced pattern, hypo olive I got from ya is coming up on one year with me now. Growing like a weed, now well over 4 feet and hands down best character of the lot, thanks!

 

[Kersten]

If one was truely concerned about the purity of an animal would they not just seek out legal wild caught locality specific animals, or an extremely reputable breeder with stock tracing directly back to wild caught animals from the same location?

I mean it's down to peoples own common sense, if your after a 100% pure animal and just go with Mr. Random Joe rather than some reliable option it's only your own fault. It's probably a bad example, but same with dogs.. If your after a pure bred do you source out something with papers or go to a backyard breeder with no proof?

Mmmmm because finding a) locale specific everything and b) honest breeders is a walk in the park. Reputation means bugger all really. All you need to fake one of them if your a dishonest breeder apparently is a few fellow troglodytes....oops I meant acolytes who are ready to sing your praises long and loud. Funny thing is that those same friends usually end up just as burnt as the average joe, but by then the damage is done and the "reputation" is created.

Unfortunately it all comes down to trial and error and that usually means wasting a few dollars one animals that aren't what they're supposed to be.

 

[Oldbeard]

Protect wild populations. This is what should be the number one priority! Captive animals ar lost to that gene pool. No matter what the experts say on this site, as soon as there is human selection involved then they are worthless and can not be returned. Maybe people should start reading more about the protocol behind capture and release projects of wild animals, out of books. Not stuff that has been written by self proclaiming experts on reptile forums. But actual scientific studies. The Australian government will never allow captive snakes with no history to be released back into the wild. Maybe some of Daves animals will be ok as he knows exactly where they originated from. The government is paranoid since all their good fortunes with introducing species. People mention gorillas, Walea and god knows what else! But their main threat is habitat destruction. Not anything else. Stop building roads and holiday homes in Queensland! All these things kill reptiles. Stop driving cars. Don't keep snakes anymore as this fuels poaching. These are things that will ensure wild populations to flourish.

Not to mention cane toads, anyone who is serious about saving our wildlife should be out ther joining forces to get rid of them

 

[Khagan]

wild caughts aren't that easy to get and not all species are available wild caught. It will come down to more selection while purchasing, you'll have to do more homework and ensure the honesty of the seller but it will ruin the market for those who are unknow (all those people who have put themselves in a position to be breeding pure bred lines over the next few seasons will have to struggle even harder to get a name for themselves) and will cause even more doubt over pure bred morphs such as the stripped diamonds.

Obviously you can't get wild caught for everything and they aren't easy to get, but if your really serious about wanting pure then you would go to every length to ensure it is. The only reason it would make it harder for people to make a name or make people doubt pure morphs is awareness of people being for hybrids. The chance of it being a hybrid would still be the same really, who's to say people haven't already made hybrids and passed them off as just some other variation in the carpets and no one be the wiser purely because it wouldn't be thought of?

Mmmmm because finding a) locale specific everything and b) honest breeders is a walk in the park. Reputation means bugger all really. All you need to fake one of them if your a dishonest breeder apparently is a few fellow troglodytes....oops I meant acolytes who are ready to sing your praises long and loud. Funny thing is that those same friends usually end up just as burnt as the average joe, but by then the damage is done and the "reputation" is created.

Unfortunately it all comes down to trial and error and that usually means wasting a few dollars one animals that aren't what they're supposed to be.

Obviously it's not easy but again.. If people are SERIOUS about wanting pure why wouldn't they be prepaired to put in the extra yards to find it?

 

[diamondgeeza]

wild caughts aren't that easy to get and not all species are available wild caught. It will come down to more selection while purchasing, you'll have to do more homework and ensure the honesty of the seller but it will ruin the market for those who are unknow (all those people who have put themselves in a position to be breeding pure bred lines over the next few seasons will have to struggle even harder to get a name for themselves) and will cause even more doubt over pure bred morphs such as the stripped diamonds.

What bloody planet are you from ?

I may be just a bloody tourist but when I was in Cairns in November I managed to catch 4 snakes (a scrubby, a jungle, a spotted and a brown tree) on a short drive up the Morris Dam rd one evening.

If its Australian and if its wild then its availability will never be an issue; the legality of its availability on the other hand is another story altogether but knowing what I know I don't honestly think that is really an issue for the odd one or two amongst you especially if you are only borrowing them for an evening or two to get jiggy with one of your lady pythons.

 

[Colin]

What bloody planet are you from ?

I may be just a bloody tourist but when I was in Cairns in November I managed to catch 4 snakes (a scrubby, a jungle, a spotted and a brown tree) on a short drive up the Morris Dam rd one evening.

If its Australian and if its wild then its availability will never be an issue; the legality of its availability on the other hand is another story altogether but knowing what I know I don't honestly think that is really an issue for the odd one or two amongst you especially if you are only borrowing them for an evening or two to get jiggy with one of your lady pythons.

yes we all know that you can go out and illegally take wild animals...
but that's not really an option that should even be considered in my opinion..