Some Morelia's

[rockman]

" This hobby is a joke sometimes with all the lying backstabbing petty little wanabes around. It really is a messy hobby with jealously running rife. "
Quote from True-Blue .

See , we can agree on something ! .

 

[bkn351]

ummm ..... thats a contridicting post.... locale morphs are the result of genetics that must (because of the locale aspect) originate in the wild populations, therefore even the extreme locale morph has the possibility to occur naturally in the wild, its just that via selection, we choose to increase the opportunity for these already present genes to be expressed. All in all these animals carry only the genetic material already present in wild populations. Your view seems to revolve around the assumption that all wild type animals are plain... the bumblebee bhp, albino darwin, albino olive, melanistic darwin... are all wild caught animals, and are by definition, wild type animals. Its a concept that seems difficult for people to wrap their heads around.

I havent read the last ten pages so if the subject pattern has changed im sorry.As i mindlessly read through the mutiple pages of arguments this post stood out to me as making the most sense in my opinion.

 

[TrueBlue]

Yes boa and rockman, we can agree on lots of things if we want and open our minds a bit more.
Im as guilty as anyone for being narrow minded at times. Except when it comes to hybrids of course, as my stance still stands firmly.
But that statement i made is unfortunately far to true and makes the hobby a scary place for the faint hearted.
Lucky for me im thick skinned, water off a ducks back to me, as they only end up making themselves look stupid in the end.

Brian,-
Thats says it all in a nut shell. Hell, where were you when the thread first started. Love your work.

 

[rockman]

Gidday All,

"The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
In the quest for a new saleable novelties, patterns and colours, breeders of such specimens
fail to realize that the damage created by this practice is permanent.
What evolution has inexorably created over the millenia, cell by cell, molecule by molecule,
is destroyed forever by the passing whim of a would-be scientist, herpetological dilettante or commercial breeder, for once the genes are commingled, they are lost forever."
(Richard Ross (The reproductive husbandry of pythons and boa's)

They are jags, no doubt about it.
I find it hard to believe that Qld Morelia's and his mates are "old school"
No old school herp would even think of such a thing.
Only the inexperienced amateur's and the money hungry would.
Cheers
Brian

Damn , Brian ,
I didn't think you where that EDDUMACTEED to write all that by yourself . LOL

Cheers

 

[cockney red]

Gidday All,

"The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
In the quest for a new saleable novelties, patterns and colours, breeders of such specimens
fail to realize that the damage created by this practice is permanent.
What evolution has inexorably created over the millenia, cell by cell, molecule by molecule,
is destroyed forever by the passing whim of a would-be scientist, herpetological dilettante or commercial breeder, for once the genes are commingled, they are lost forever."
(Richard Ross (The reproductive husbandry of pythons and boa's)

They are jags, no doubt about it.
I find it hard to believe that Qld Morelia's and his mates are "old school"
No old school herp would even think of such a thing.
Only the inexperienced amateur's and the money hungry would.
Cheers
Brian

Nuff said.

 

[Jet_1]

Hi bkn351,
I dont think that many people would argue that these traits are naturally occurring or derived from a wild animal. (eventhough some people are still raising it as an argument) I think the debate seems to have shifted to a more philosophical discussion about what is a "natural" situation( eg, captive breeding does not essentially represent a "true" wild type situation....I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue that serious breeders line breed animals that they find to have desirable traits) so essentially this is not natural. So whether it be albino, melanisitc, stripes, bands, hypo whatever, sure these things are natural traits but in captivity we reproduce them with far more regularity.......simply because we like them! I guess the morelia morph supporters are taking this one step further..All the traits are by definition still natural its just not necessarily a natural introduction. Same could probably be said though for striped carpets, just because you breed 2 striped carpets together doesnt mean they came from the same area

plus bumblebbe BHP's, albino darwins, albino olives etc, I wouldnt call "locale morphs", I dont think that trait would be representative of those species in that area.

 

[indicus]

Yet another one of these threads that try to justify the stupidity; and arrogance of some keepers.
We tend to forget; it's not ones right to keep and breed native fauna;
but a privilege to do so....I wont even start

 

[QldMorelias]

Once again its good to see that there are so many passionate people out there wanting to keep clean lines. Its these people and others like you that will ensure there will always be clean lines available for those who want them..
All the line breeding in the world and maintaining clean lines is great, but there never going back to the wild, the never going to be used for any significant breeding program and at the end of the day all their being bred for is the domestic Pet trade.
So what does it matter, on one hand you have pretty looking snakes that may be crosses and the other you have pretty looking snakes that are selectively bred.

People have the choice, they now can choose what they want. Some like em, some loathe em

 

[ihaveherps]

Where on Earth do you guys get your information ? In America and that other big place the Rest of the World they keep reptiles from every corner of the world, it's probably safe to say that 90% of their animals are pure. Now I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade and introduce facts into a great emotional debate but please do just a little bit of research rather than relying on some inaccurate statements on the Internet.

Boa, I agree that the generalisations made to becoming more like the US, are vast blanket statements that usually irk me too, though I have come over time to accept that the statement refers to Morelias in particular, and not the entire international herp scene. The morelia complex in the US in particular is a bit of a shambles really, yes they can still get pure sub-specific animals, theres no doubting that, and yes there seems to be an un-ending flow of animals leaving our shores, but the fact still remains that alot of their morelia stocks are hybrids, examples such as the miniscule amount of Diamonds compared to the masses of diamond crosses of various descriptions, the albino darwins pretty much off the bat being hybridised with Irian Jayas, the monster high yellow jungles 10ft + in some instances, i could go on and on...

I am more amused by those who promote hybrids and their "its the way of the future" and "look at overseas markets, theres your proof" sort of statements. Looking at the broader picture, they would have noticed that the morelia group is pretty much shunned by the wider herp community, and recently in the US they speculated that it was most probably due to alot of bad assumptions on the integrity of the purity of the animals by those outside the morelia niche keepers. Ok, this cant be applied to here, as we arent afforded the same choice as they are, though still leads me into my next point.... If the pro-hybrid brigade removed their blinkers while sussing out the international scene a bit more thoroughly, they would also soon learn that the most common kept species/sub-species, the animals demanding the highest money, and arguably the most stunning of the morph animals, the leusistics, lavendar albinos, (arguably) even the original jag, are all pure animals.

I would spend as much time, if not more learning from the international scene. The understanding of genetics and husbandry, are in a practical sense, a long way ahead of us.... to some this is disappointing, to me its exciting. We have barely scratched the surface as to understanding the traits of our animals, locale breeding actually increases the possibilities of digging new traits out.... the hybrid short cuts are actually a step backwards from being the future, they are the past, its the easy way, because its already known and understood.... the real people who will forge ahead in the hobby are those who strive that little bit harder.

 

[DanTheMan]

mate, you make no sense...

Whats up with the quotes?
They're not working properly, because your quote of fatfrog says that I said that, which I certainly didnt!:lol:

 

[Jungleland]

Here you go mistymtn, Rp prosiepines, hey qldmorelias, the first one in this thread is a murry darling Jags? I think i know who you are

More pics of Jags to be sold as "hybrid's"...
Boring....Bring on the pure locale specific morphs!!

 

[Jet_1]

bout time we had some more pics

hey jungleland,
very nice snake is it one of yours?

 

[bkn351]

Hi bkn351,
I dont think that many people would argue that these traits are naturally occurring or derived from a wild animal. (eventhough some people are still raising it as an argument) I think the debate seems to have shifted to a more philosophical discussion about what is a "natural" situation( eg, captive breeding does not essentially represent a "true" wild type situation....I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue that serious breeders line breed animals that they find to have desirable traits) so essentially this is not natural. So whether it be albino, melanisitc, stripes, bands, hypo whatever, sure these things are natural traits but in captivity we reproduce them with far more regularity.......simply because we like them! I guess the morelia morph supporters are taking this one step further..All the traits are by definition still natural its just not necessarily a natural introduction. Same could probably be said though for striped carpets, just because you breed 2 striped carpets together doesnt mean they came from the same area

plus bumblebbe BHP's, albino darwins, albino olives etc, I wouldnt call "locale morphs", I dont think that trait would be representative of those species in that area.

I will agree that those morphs are not something that occurs with as much regularity as they do in captivity(maybe not at all)but they are created by breeding the same subspecies.IM NOT LOCALE SPECIFIC ,i should of mentioned that before but maybe breed specific ie: if u have a diamond with lots of yellow and buy another diamond with lots of yellow and u breed and breed to create a snake that looks like a banana i have no problem with that as it is still a diamond python.I just see no need to cross two species that will never interbreed naturally to create a snake with wierd and wonderful patterns and colours when it can obviously be done within the subspecies.

Hopfully jet that cleares up where im coming from by quoting that post and why it made so much sense to me.

THANKS

 

[QldMorelias]

Yet another one of these threads that try to justify the stupidity; and arrogance of some keepers.
We tend to forget; it's not ones right to keep and breed native fauna;
but a privilege to do so....I wont even start

....no, don't start. Just refer back to previous posts if your interested.
So our privilege only allows us to keep and breed for pets animals that came from the same location for what reason exactly???. Even though they will never again be released to the wild. I'm sure they would find comfort in knowing that they still kinda look like grandpa did, well kind of anyway.

 

[Kersten]

Gidday All,

"The genetic chaos that exists behind this rainbow of pretty patterns can never be rectified.
The lack of foresight demonstrated such irresponsible breeding is catastrophic and profound.
In the quest for a new saleable novelties, patterns and colours, breeders of such specimens
fail to realize that the damage created by this practice is permanent.
What evolution has inexorably created over the millenia, cell by cell, molecule by molecule,
is destroyed forever by the passing whim of a would-be scientist, herpetological dilettante or commercial breeder, for once the genes are commingled, they are lost forever."
(Richard Ross (The reproductive husbandry of pythons and boa's)

They are jags, no doubt about it.
I find it hard to believe that Qld Morelia's and his mates are "old school"
No old school herp would even think of such a thing.
Only the inexperienced amateur's and the money hungry would.
Cheers
Brian

Spot on.

 

[Ishah]

....no, don't start. Just refer back to previous posts if your interested.
So our privilege only allows us to keep and breed for pets animals that came from the same location for what reason exactly???. Even though they will never again be released to the wild. I'm sure they would find comfort in knowing that they still kinda look like grandpa did, well kind of anyway.

STOP saying that they will never get released back into the wild, as this is a very poor reason/excuse to hybridise! Its getting OLD and quite irritating really...We all know there is EVERY chance that they CAN & WILL (accidentally or intentionally) get released back into the wild! Just look at all the threads on lost pythons which have never been found again... Not everyone has the perfect escape-proof enclosures like I'm sure YOU would have...

The difference between hybrids and pures getting released back into the wild is, that hybrids are more likely to be released intentionally than pures and pures are more likely to be an accidental release...For many reasons, not just that 95% of a hybrid clutch will be ugly and discarded via multiple means...

I also agree 100% with bwana, it couldn't have been said any better!

 

[krefft]

[
"The difference between hybrids and pures getting released back into the wild is, that hybrids are more likely to be released intentionally than pures and pures are more likely to be an accidental release...For many reasons, not just that 95% of a hybrid clutch will be ugly and discarded via multiple means..."

I would have thought the exact opposite to be true for re release. If someone had offspring that they couldn't sell and lived within the animals range the chances of them being released would be much higher than if thet were a hybrid.
I've not read anywhere that 95% of hybrids come out looking "ugly" could you tell me where you read that?

 

[mistymtn]

Lovely Jungleland,
With animals like this why would you need to breed & smuggle in Mongrels!!

Cheers

Here you go mistymtn, Rp prosiepines, hey qldmorelias, the first one in this thread is a murry darling Jags? I think i know who you are

 

[Oldbeard]

Ahhhh well if youve read it on an american website then it must be true eh !!
Wouldnt it be better to get the info from an american instead of assuming,

I suggest all APS members go to L.A expo in sept or daytona expo in aug and have a look at what they have and talk to them about their breeding. you will come back with a very different idea of how it is over there. there is a lot more pure stuff there than you think.
Besides the small amount of breeders doing jags and the carpondros, i think you would be impressed with the lines of pure morelia they actually have.
As for the pure diamonds, they are miniscule over there as they dont know how to breed them. As soon as they hear your aussie accent they will ask you what is the trick to breeding diamonds. They just dont get it.

anyway back to the hybrid discussion, it took me hours to figure out how to post a pic last night. i finally got it and then they deleted the thread.
so here it is again. pick the mix

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Gtp X jungle jaguar?