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here is my coastal intergrade ENJOY.Nice looking intergades to lol.
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re Striped

Yeh thats a nice snake for sure Matt.
 
this is another one of matthew Bonnetts line of gosfords golds its not a great picture it is very bright yellow in the light

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There is a few striped Bredli going around now.. Nice animal too.

Hi Steve,:)

Yeah there's a few striped bredli going around "NOW", also some cape yorks and darwins and prossies ect (striped) so I don't see any reason why in doubt that it can be achieved in pure diamonds.

A decade ago it's very uncommon to come across striped carpets, just because not as many herpers back then like we have now, more people are keeping and breeding(so we just bound to see more differnt stuff out there), internet and forums like APS bring us all herpers together and that's a great way to nework unlike before that we were restricted to our local herp meetings and same as the restriction to see other animals.saying that we will see more "MORPHS" coming out in the near future from different species of morelia.(does'nt mean they are hybrids)

IMO not because it's different or has striped it automatically qualifies as an intergrade or hybrids:D I suppose we got used to seeing some animals as in there "CLASSIC" look and we got used to that and when we see species that's a little different( like daves woma thread) we start to think Hey that can't be right or pure because that's not what we use on seeing(which is fair enough in some extent)

Our hobby is changing in some ways whether we like it or not and there will always be a divided opinions.

Just my two cents....

Have a good day.

Joel
 
Yes we are back to the Diamonds that can't be Diamonds even though both parents are Diamonds ;)
 
Boa , they are very nice looking snakes mate ,Regardless of what people like to call them..
 
What is the taxonomical difference between a Diamond, Coastal, Jungle & MD? I have asked this question many a time and never received a definite answer. The only answer I could ever get is that they look different. Scale counts the same, dna the same etc. To me, if a coastal looking spilota turns up in Wollongong then it is a coastal. But I may be wrong. Perhaps it is a Diamond because of locality.

Matt, I would like to see what a taxonomist would say on the matter?

My personal, unqualified, opinion is that all these arguements/disucssions stem out of the fact that we have split spilota into all those sup species based purely on looks and location. So you throw a Coastal over a Black Diamond and get an intergrade looking offspring that many people will call a pure diamond but without locality information and you now have a pure diamond. Cross it with another pure diamond and you could get anything but it is still offered as a pure diamond.

I doubt that all this cross breeding was going on in the wild.

I'm up for putting all spilota back into the one species and call Boa's snakes striped spilota. Then there will be no doubt as to their purity. Call diamonds Sydney Carpets or Gosford Carpets or Port Mac Carpets.

And as to the arguement of different coloured Brown Snakes, yes that is correct. There are also different coloured Spilota but we decided to call them different species. Maybe we could subdivide BHP's into differnet sub species from Qld, NT & WA. Same with Frillies. Oh, why stop there. Aren't different locality humans also somewhat different in appearance. And funny thing, cross humans from different localities and you get the best looking ones as well.

As I said, my opinion is totally unqualified so take it as you will.
 
Were all the offspring unusuall or were there some in the clutch that resembled the parents? If there were some normnal appearing animnals in the clutch then it could be a recessive mutation.

If there are unusual animals as well as normals in the clutch then it suggests a recessive trait. All the unusuall ones both striped and not striped could be the homozygous version of this mutation.

If all the offspring are unusuall then it suggests that the trait will not be genetic. The only exlainations for an entire clutch being so unusuall would developmental problems during incubation, temerature issues during incubation , and of course that they really are hybrids and those are not their parents.

Nick
 
Thanks Serp. Means a lot coming from you.

STILL no one can tell me how you tell a Diamond from an Intergrade... Funny that.

As noted, the ONLY difference is the pattern. So you can tell me what ever story you like, there still not a Diamond, according to the way we classify a diamond python.

Im probably with Pete here in a way, it seems the ONLY way we could fix the issue is to put them in the same category. BUT, to me there is a clear difference between a Diamond and an Intergrade, how on earth half the people on here can still claim they are Diamonds I will never know, but quite clearly you haven't read a book on them lately...

Again, I think they are spectacular snakes. But there NOT what a Diamond should, could or does look like. Meaning ....
 
Well the hatchlings Boa has are not the result of incubation. Are you saying your one there WAS the result of it? Would be much easier to believe! haha.

I'm certainly saying it COULD be as a result of incubation. When that snake hatched out, that's exactly what I thought it was, but successive clutches producing striped babies has made me wonder. The problem is, with the slow maturation of diamonds, it will take many years to go through several generations of breeding to determine if there's a genetic basis to it. In the meantime, I'm not claiming anything except that I believe it to be a pure diamond with stripes (that looks pretty cool!).

On the topic of its its purity, I never collected the original founder animals (which were several generations back), so I'll never have that absolute confidence of their provenance. However, after looking in to it, it appears that all of the animals in our breeding group have originated from Peter Krauss (via trusted breeders like Simon Stone and Russel Grant). There's always the possibility that someone played silly buggers with the purity somewhere along the line, but I don't believe that to be the case. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it!

On another note, any luck tracking those f$@%%^! down??

Not sure what this means?

IMO not because it's different or has striped it automatically qualifies as an intergrade or hybrids:D I suppose we got used to seeing some animals as in there "CLASSIC" look and we got used to that and when we see species that's a little different( like daves woma thread) we start to think Hey that can't be right or pure because that's not what we use on seeing(which is fair enough in some extent)

Excellent point Joel! A striped diamond simply does not look like a 'classic' diamond. However, striping is not at all uncommon in the Morelia spilota complex. A genetically striped diamond WILL NOT look like a classic diamond and neither will an incubation-affected striped diamond. It just so happens that carpet x diamond hybrids can tend towards a similar (though, in my opinion, different) look and this confuses some people.

To be honest, its quite heartening that a number of people are being vigilant about potential hybrids and I think we'd be a bit worse off if people stopped questioning 'suspect' snakes. I don't particularly like the hybrids that are filtering in to the hobby, but I don't mind the morphs as much. I guess that's because morphs are still carrying the wild-type genes (which are to be treasured), but they're just being masked. On the other hand, hybrids cause the wild-type genes to be lost forever in a genetic pea soup.

I welcome you to keep questioning my snakes until I really get to the bottom of it! I'm just hoping that the bottom of it is some form of simple (or, at least, easily repeatable) genetic inheritance :lol:

Regards,
Matt
 
We keep coming back to the same thing, even though I know the parents of these snakes are pure Diamonds and trust the breeder 100% I should call them Intergrades, wouldn't that be misrepresentation ?
Then we get the ridiculous statements like they are Diamond/Jungle crosses.
I am all for returning them to one species, they can't be divided at a DNA level so as far as I can see there is no justification for splitting them at all.
 
I just can't get my head around pug's argument. They don't look like normal diamonds, yet the parents were diamonds, so they can't be diamonds....
 
To answer your question on what makes a diamond a diamond and an intergrade an intergrade is quite simple but there is always going to be something that comes along that is contrary to what makes a pure diamond or intergrade and there are always exceptions to the rules.

If you are just going by what books say i'm sorry but that doesn't necessarily mean they are correct especially depending which book and when it was written.

Pure diamonds are meant to have as close to perfect diamond shaped rosettes all over the body with none touching each other and nice and evenly spaced and then tere is cloour which ranges hugely in diamonds from black and white to high yellows and inbetweens and just because any diamond does not show these characteristics mainly being the pattern doesn't mean they aren't pure,if you have seen as many pure diamonds in the wild as you say you have i'd bet many of them did not conform to what a pure diamond is meant to look like.If the animal comes from pure diamond locality then to me that's pure wether it has bigger than normal rosettes and some lateral striping or not.

I have seen many crosses and pure intergades that look every bit the pure diamond but they aren't and how anyone can tell they aren't for sure has me beat.I put up numerous pics some time ago of pure intergrades bred by the best known intergade breeder in the hobby and quite a few people including B Whitey could not tell that they were proper intergrades and not pure diamonds and i'm sure of the many people in the hobby he has seen enough wild pure diamonds to know what he's talking about but still can't be 100% sure of certain animals other than going on who bred them and their ancestory.

Just because a diamond doesn't look like what the books say a pure diamond is meant to look like doesn't mean it's not pure at all.The variation i've seen in books of supposed pure diamonds including patterning and colour has been quite varied however not as varied as most other spilota.

As far as striped carpets not being so comon years ago i ave to disagree especially with Proserpines,in general most wild Proserpines i see have some degree of striping,you have to remember Proserpines were first started off in the hobby by only one or two people a long time back as far as i'm aware and many from that original lineage i've seen haven't shown much striping but that goes back to the type of animals fcaught that were bred from.If striped ones were amongst the first caught and bred and introduced into the hobby i'm sure there would be more striped prossies than not.I've seen my fair share and i'd say up to 3/4 have been striped or partially striped or at least joined patterning along the dorsal area but more zig zag than straight stripes!

I've heard a few stories regarding pure diamonds and the crossing of them to get them to breed easier and i fel it holds some weight but i can't say for sure or not and aren't about to put my foot right in it so to speak.Look at how hard the US and overseas have found it to breed pure diamonds and they had very pure diamonds way back when animals were introduced but still they don't breed them consistantly and have outcrossed them with other spilota to get them to breed easier and some of those offspring look everybit the pure diamond to me!

Here's a pic many could not distiguish as to wether it's an intergrade or pure diamond,what would you say this one is although it doesn't fit into the category of a pure diamond as far as a little striping and not perfect small diamond shaped rosettes?
 
Sorry couldn't find edit to put the pic in and can't read the whole posts ppl are writing just missing a few letters at the right???
 

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Thanks Serp. Means a lot coming from you.

STILL no one can tell me how you tell a Diamond from an Intergrade... Funny that.

As noted, the ONLY difference is the pattern. So you can tell me what ever story you like, there still not a Diamond, according to the way we classify a diamond python.

BUT, to me there is a clear difference between a Diamond and an Intergrade, how on earth half the people on here can still claim they are Diamonds I will never know, but quite clearly you haven't read a book on them lately...

Hi Steve,

Perhaps not many people here feels qualified enough to make that call that is why you have'nt had any replies. You sound confident enough and convinced to say that the only difference is pattern so why worry about other peoples opinion.:)

I'm not brave enough to make any assumption instead will keep an open mind, I remember one reputable good breeder making a comment on some prossie stripe, he reckons that he used to stay on that area for herping and not once he's seen a striped prossie, therefore his conclusion is that they are HYBRIDS:D unfortunately books and experience are not always right but a good guidance for sure , after all we are still ALL learning and will always have something new to learn, I do take your point though and as I mentioned earlier this will always be and will stay as a divided opinions that is luckily enough we are all entitled to;)

What gets me is when someone is confident enough to make a call on such a sensitive topic.


Regards,

Joel
 
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