Striped Diamond holdbacks

[zulu]

re Striped

20 years ago they would have been euthanasiased give me a CLASSIC gosford every time yep agree pretty python but not a Diamond

Yeh,they do exist the stripey genuine gosford golds,i was driving down ourimbah road near gosford the other day and low and behold i saw a huge 3 metre gold striper on the road.I promptly ran it over,revved up and skidded over the beast backwards.I then got out to inspect the beasty which was in his last dying moments on this planet,i herd a faint whisper "come closer non believer,i have a message for boa and matt". I edged closer to the huge striped dying serpent,suspecting it may well be boobytrapped.I am the last one of my breed left in the wild,tell boa and matt,to look after my children. Then he dyed,oh how sad i was this rare mythical beast was dead,great thunder and lightning filled the ourimbah sky and as i got back into the car i thought ide run the bugger over again just to make sure the mongrel was dead cause it just goes on an on HaHa .

 

[BROWNS]

LOL zulu,you rack me up:lol:

Pugs,not having a go mate but you haven't exactly been herping for a very long time but now somehow seem to be of the opinion you're well qualified enough to tell everyone here about what is and isn't a pure diamond.I seem to remember a thread a while back which i'm sure was deleted where indicus asked you the very same question you're asking now,being "what makes a diamond a diamond and an intergrade an intergrade etc etc" but you had no answer for him and were in return given a full answer and explanation to your question you ask still now but couldn't answer yourself a short while back.Please don't take this the wrong way or personally as i'm not having a go at you but until you have caught and photographed and taken records etc of as many diamonds in the wild as many others on this forum i know have i feel your arguement holds no weight for me unfortunately and you can't just go by books or taking photos of others collections,it takes a hell of a lot more time field herping than i'm sure you have done to be able to give a qualified opinion on diamonds and intergrades based on your sole experience alone and nobody elses!

Again i mean no offence and hope you don't take it personally as that's not how it's meant to come across.As for an answer maybe you should go back a page or two ,i did give you an answer but if it wasn't good enough for you i'm sorry i'm sure there's 100 more qualified people on here than me or yourself who can answer that for you although i have a fair idea why may haven't bothered to comment.I also posted a pic for you to take a look at and maybe take a stab at it's purity if you're willing to give it a shot.When i write these things and the same question still gets asked i wonder why i bother at times.

If nobody else can give you the answer to your question maybe you could tell all of us how it's meant to be and not meant to be,i'm sure there's many dying to hear your interperatations on what makes a diamond pure,or an intergrade an intergrade remembering the many and varied localities and variations within these animals themselves?I'm talking wild animals here not captive bred as you only have a breeders word on how genuine the locality or animal is.

Cheers and once again no hard feelings meant!!

 

[zulu]

re Striped

Hi Browns,see those coffs harbour carpets that ponybug has posted that are ver attractive animals hey,different in looks at least to port macs which have the more diamondish appearance.I used to be at kumbaingeri wildlife park around 1970 after kerry head left,ide go up there on the scool holidays and camp in the reptile room which was an old school house.Robert Mutton the owner one day was at a dairy farm talking to a farmer he knew at bellingen and he heard something moving in the barn walls,sure enough it was a big carpet like pony bugs in colouration,the pattern of a normal coastal with the colours and brightness of a diamond from the south.This particilar specimen was the nicest one that ide seen come into the wildlife park over the years i was there,most were the typical run of the mill coastals,ive got some coffs harbour ones myself,nice and stripey,one is hypo in appaerance,but they are not as nice as the ones pony bug put up which is like the bellingen one which is close to coffs.These particular type are the ones Eric Worrell described in his book retiles of australia,"the pattern of a carpet python and the colour of a diamond" which he sescribes the intergrade form being from Kempsey dorrigo region,have onley seen one young one in the early 70s which was caught crossing the road near dorrigo,very nice,bit diamond like but too young to tell what an adult would like.

 

[MatE]

Hi Browns,see those coffs harbour carpets that ponybug has posted that are ver attractive animals hey,different in looks at least to port macs which have the more diamondish appearance.I used to be at kumbaingeri wildlife park around 1970 after kerry head left,ide go up there on the scool holidays and camp in the reptile room which was an old school house.Robert Mutton the owner one day was at a dairy farm talking to a farmer he knew at bellingen and he heard something moving in the barn walls,sure enough it was a big carpet like pony bugs in colouration,the pattern of a normal coastal with the colours and brightness of a diamond from the south.This particilar specimen was the nicest one that ide seen come into the wildlife park over the years i was there,most were the typical run of the mill coastals,ive got some coffs harbour ones myself,nice and stripey,one is hypo in appaerance,but they are not as nice as the ones pony bug put up which is like the bellingen one which is close to coffs.These particular type are the ones Eric Worrell described in his book retiles of australia,"the pattern of a carpet python and the colour of a diamond" which he sescribes the intergrade form being from Kempsey dorrigo region,have onley seen one young one in the early 70s which was caught crossing the road near dorrigo,very nice,bit diamond like but too young to tell what an adult would like.

I work in dorrigo from time to time as im a traffic controller so i get around a bit and have seen the animals you are talking about as an adult animal crawled between me and my STOP/SLOW sign while i was holding it lol.They look like diamonds but was told from a mate they are carpets.But i swear it looked like a Diamond.Ive also seen a snake from a place called copmanhurst which is up the clarence river when i was camping and it was black and white and fat and chunky and looked like a diamond,and just around the next bend so coastal of 8 feet or more with the normal colouration.So where does the line go for diamond /coastal range as these animals are miles away from the portmaqaurie "border"?

 

[BIG RYANO]

You tell me how you would classify a Diamond then?

I actually class them all as the same animal, all the different carpets/diamonds/intergrades that is. I agree with Simon Fearns opinion in the latest mag. I also think the "intergrades" from Port Stephens, are the best looking of them all. A mate had one recently that was the best looking Morelia i've ever seen.

 

[NickM]

The simple fact that some of the clutchmates were typical diamonds and some were unusuall suggests its just a recessive mutation.

Some mutations are color and pattern mutations and this fits that model. If they were some sort of hybrid then we would expect to see all of the offspring resembling hybirds to some extent. The fact that the parents are typical diamonds as well as some of the offspring suggest that both parents are hets.

A repeat breeding of thesame parents that yields similar results would confirm this. Also any breeding of the abberant offsping together should yeild all mutants.

The fact that neither parent is unusuall rules out a co-domiant trait , and the presence of multiple abberants in the clutch strongly goes against the chance that it was a spontaneous mutation.

If it is a mutation then the striping may not always be present in the mutant offspring. There appears to be striped as well as banded mutatns in the clutch so it appears as though the striping is inconsistant and not always present in thje homozygous offspring.

A few more breeding will answer all the questions very definitively. If they were crosses of some sort then the look will simply fade away with each generation they are bred to diaomonds and if they are a real mutation the results should be repeatable .

By chance were the parents from the same geographic area? this increases the chances that they are carrying a recessive gene. There are numerous examples of this in other species. While the mutatants may not often survive in the wild the normal appearing heterozygous animals do fine and pass that gene along. so the wild morphs we see are usually just the result of a few wild "hets" that randomly run into each other.

I know of many people who have produced ball python morphs when breeding their morph males to assumed nomal imported females. in each case the female turned out to be wild collected "hets"

Nick

 

[Jungleland]

The simple fact that some of the clutchmates were typical diamonds and some were unusuall suggests its just a recessive mutation.

Some mutations are color and pattern mutations and this fits that model. If they were some sort of hybrid then we would expect to see all of the offspring resembling hybirds to some extent. The fact that the parents are typical diamonds as well as some of the offspring suggest that both parents are hets.

A repeat breeding of thesame parents that yields similar results would confirm this. Also any breeding of the abberant offsping together should yeild all mutants.

The fact that neither parent is unusuall rules out a co-domiant trait , and the presence of multiple abberants in the clutch strongly goes against the chance that it was a spontaneous mutation.

If it is a mutation then the striping may not always be present in the mutant offspring. There appears to be striped as well as banded mutatns in the clutch so it appears as though the striping is inconsistant and not always present in thje homozygous offspring.

A few more breeding will answer all the questions very definitively. If they were crosses of some sort then the look will simply fade away with each generation they are bred to diaomonds and if they are a real mutation the results should be repeatable .

By chance were the parents from the same geographic area? this increases the chances that they are carrying a recessive gene. There are numerous examples of this in other species. While the mutatants may not often survive in the wild the normal appearing heterozygous animals do fine and pass that gene along. so the wild morphs we see are usually just the result of a few wild "hets" that randomly run into each other.

I know of many people who have produced ball python morphs when breeding their morph males to assumed nomal imported females. in each case the female turned out to be wild collected "hets"

Nick

Thank you for your very detailed reply on this thread mr. mutton.

Yeah pugsly I must say a great thread and I don't think anyone is taking offence, just a healthy discussion.

Cheers

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Good post Nick
very interesting
cheers
Roger

 

[pugsly]

No offence taken Browns.

I don't claim and never have to have the knowledge or experience of a Sh.. load of other herpers on here.

That doesnt mean I haven't done my own research, and discussed this topic with several FAR mroe experienced people than most on this forum.

I have done quite a large amount of photography of Diamonds in the past two years, (when Get Coiled produces his book you will find out HOW much) and I believe I have a good knowledge of the species, several people call me to photograph wild caughts, captive breds, everything. I think I have 3000 photographs of Diamonds alone. I think that and the limited all be it herping I have done qualifies me to have an opinion on the matter.

Not sure what you smoke before jumping online Zulu.. but send some my way!

I have stated in this thread Browns, IMO (whatever its worth) a Diamond is a diamond because of what it looks like, pattern, colour, even size in some circumstances. And yes locale also. You described what a classic diamond by literature is supposed to look like, and thats what I believe it should also. When the rosettes start changing and joining, stripes come in and pattern looks like a carpet. Its not a Diamond..

I haven't bothered to post any pics in this thread as I have done previously. But tonight I might put some up of your classic, pure Diamond. Then of your standard intergrade. Which mirrors these snakes..

 

[pugsly]

Ok, some pics of 'pure' Diamonds. Note the patterning.
I have included a couple here which even push the boudaries, 1 from Gosford which hasn't got 'perfect' rosettes but in comparison to an intergrade. Can still tell the difference.

 

[pugsly]

Now some intergrades.

Surely we can all see the difference..

 

[pugsly]

Now finally.

A Coffs carpet pattern. Look familiar?

 

[Jonno from ERD]

Pugsly,

Firstly, intergrades have never been described as a species, so what taxonomical name would you assign to them?

Secondly, the descriptions of the different subspecies of Morelia are about as clear as mud, and aren't accepted by most academic herps. My recommendation to people who ask me for advice is to buy their Morelia by locality, not by species/subspecies. Buying animals this way means that you will always know what they are, as it doesn't matter what happens within taxonomical circles, they will always be pure to a specific locale.

I think nearly every description of Morelia spilota sp. refers to them as a "highly variable" group. I don't have any books with me at the moment, but I would love to see proof that the true description of Diamonds includes the size of their rossettes.

Thirdly, arguing this point with people like Matt Bonnett and Dan Gilbertson is ridiculous. I couldn't think of two more trustworthy people in the reptile keeping game, and neither have any reason to try and argue that their animals are pure if they weren't. I have personally seen the majority of Dan's Diamond collection, including the striped juveniles and their "perfect" siblings.

Also, how would you describe something like melanistic Darwin carpets? Are they no longer Darwins because they don't exhibit ANY of their original colouration? What makes them a Darwin if they no longer look like one?

The facts are that these striped Diamonds originated from animals that were originally collected (2 generations ago) in Gosford. Are you trying to suggest that a Gosford animal that appears (and is!) "pure", is able to produce half a clutch of "pure" Diamonds and half a clutch of "intergrades" that don't occur within a few hundred kilometres of Gosford?

What's next, a South West Carpet producing Atherton Jungles and Murray Darlings in one clutch?

 

[mrsshep77]

Pugs in that first lot of pictures you posted... can you tell me the locale of that 5th photo? My male looks like that and I'm trying to do some research on his possible locality as he varies alot from my b&w girl.

By the way I love reading these threads... it helps me gather more info and insight into diamonds as I'm just starting out breeding my own "pure" diamonds hehehe!!!

Cheers,
Mell

 

[pugsly]

No need to get all upset Jonno..

I'm not arguing with Matt nor Daniel, I think you will find Matt is as interested in this topic as anyone, and isn't at all upset over this discussion, why don't you let them speak for themselves. I never have questioned their honesty or integrity. The offspring came from parents with 'suspect' at best locale. The locale of the parents is completely unknown, and is what I was referring to in the 'intergrade down the line somewhere'.

Why haven't intergrades been described as a species then? (sub species anyway) I would be all in favour of making them one. Why aren't they included in Spilota Spilota then?

I am at work and don't carry my books around either, but would be happy to post some descriptions from several books later on.

As for melanistic, amelanistic, albino, whatever mutation, you know as well as I do, that is a completely different kettle of fish. If there was one of those (which from what I have heard there IS in the intergrade line) albino's or melanistic snakes appear, of course it would be a Diamond (if in fact that's what it was). Yes of course it would look nothing like it, because of the mutation not because of the fact its black, white purple whatever. That argument is ridiculous.

"What's next, a South West Carpet producing Atherton Jungles and Murray Darlings in one clutch?"

If you claim there pure Diamonds, then thats EXACTLY what you think can happen.

That line just highlights my point. 'Pure' Diamond, can't produce intergrades, UNLESS there is intergrade in the bloodline..

 

[pugsly]

Oh and Mrshepp, the 5th one is a Campbelltown locale.

 

[Retic]

I am to be honest enjoying this debate, mostly nothing is being pushed down anyones throat and by and large the debate has been sensible apart from a few bits of fishing.
Having said that none of what has been said alters the facts in anyway shape or form, I agree wholehartedly with what Jonno has said, there is NO doubt as to the pure lineage of Dans animals, NONE.
I have been told I would misrepresenting the animals if I sold them as pure Diamonds even given the fact that they come from pure parents BUT I have also been told I should sell any offspring as intergrades, wouldn't that be misrepresentation ?

All very nice looking snakes by the way Pugs.

 

[Jonno from ERD]

No need to get all upset Jonno..

I'm not arguing with Matt nor Daniel, I think you will find Matt is as interested in this topic as anyone, and isn't at all upset over this discussion, why don't you let them speak for themselves. I never have questioned their honesty or integrity. The offspring came from parents with 'suspect' at best locale. The locale of the parents is completely unknown, and is what I was referring to in the 'intergrade down the line somewhere'.

Why haven't intergrades been described as a species then? (sub species anyway) I would be all in favour of making them one. Why aren't they included in Spilota Spilota then?

I am at work and don't carry my books around either, but would be happy to post some descriptions from several books later on.

As for melanistic, amelanistic, albino, whatever mutation, you know as well as I do, that is a completely different kettle of fish. If there was one of those (which from what I have heard there IS in the intergrade line) albino's or melanistic snakes appear, of course it would be a Diamond (if in fact that's what it was). Yes of course it would look nothing like it, because of the mutation not because of the fact its black, white purple whatever. That argument is ridiculous.

"What's next, a South West Carpet producing Atherton Jungles and Murray Darlings in one clutch?"

If you claim there pure Diamonds, then thats EXACTLY what you think can happen.

That line just highlights my point. 'Pure' Diamond, can't produce intergrades, UNLESS there is intergrade in the bloodline..

Pugsly,

At the end of the day, you are trying to say that Dan's animals are not pure, while he is certain they are.

I do not know how you arrived at the assumption that the animals Dan owns are from a "suspect" location. Here's his own account of the history of the animals, BEFORE the first clutch hatched!

"These two are unrelated and were bred from two wild caught pairs collected by a friend of mine in the Gosford area in the early 90's and declared in the 96 amnesty. They were then passed on to me. The male hatched in 99 and the female 2000. I got out of pythons in 2000 when I started getting more interested in elapids and sold them all. This pair landed back in my hands last year from a friend who is doing the same thing I did (getting out of pythons and into elapids). Silly boy....

This is the first time they have bred (now 7 and 8 years old).

Cheers,

Daniel"

Intergrades haven't been described as a species because they aren't one. Taxonomy of the Morelia spilota group, as I said earlier, is about as clear as mud. You cannot simply describe an animal based on colouration alone, which is nearly always the only difference with the Morelia spilota group. At the moment, I believe there is only three recognised species - Morelia spilota imbricata, Morelia spilota spilota and Morelia spilota variegata.

Maybe my example of melanstic Darwins wasn't ideal. What about almost completely patternless Carpet Pythons, exhibiting only the very odd black fleck?

As I said, I'd love to see a description of any Morelia spilota sp. that doesn't refer to them as "variable".

 

[pugsly]

Then what sis your solution to this? We class Morelia into 3 sub species rather than the ones we have now?

Imbricata - Sure.

Spilota spilota - Which snakes fit here? Diamonds and Intergrades, Diamonds, intergrades, Coastals, jungles?

Varigata - Again, what fits into this category? Darwins and Murray darlings?

I can't see how we can fit what we have now into 3.

Either they stay how they are, and add intergrades. (My option)

Or, the alternative, which would kill the hobby in my opinion is put them into 1, 3, 4 whatever categories, all this does is say 'Hey Hybrid breeders! Go for your life!"

I can't accept that a locale specific Tully is the same as a Wollongong Diamond. Sorry...

 

[Ramsayi]

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.

Lumpers and splitters coming to the fore.