Striped Diamond holdbacks
Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:
- Status
I know...
Frankly, I have had enough of arguing the same thing. I will continue to keep my 'pure' animals and go on with life fine. But I argue this so vigerously for the hobby.
Too many herpers have NO idea on what is what, I see it every day and the amount of dodgy hybrid breeders and sellers is disgusting. In a few years time, we are going to be exactly like the US, no one will have a clue what is what.
I am the first to admit I have changed my views on this, when I first got into the hobby I was probably like the majority and saw a pretty snake, didn't care or have a clue what is was or how it got that way, its all aesthetics, but then you see a bigger picture..
Hell there are already wild intergrades in the Royal, soon there will be god knows what will be in our national parks.. But hey I guess if there all under the 1 class then who cares right?
Frankly, I have had enough of arguing the same thing. I will continue to keep my 'pure' animals and go on with life fine. But I argue this so vigerously for the hobby.
Too many herpers have NO idea on what is what, I see it every day and the amount of dodgy hybrid breeders and sellers is disgusting. In a few years time, we are going to be exactly like the US, no one will have a clue what is what.
I am the first to admit I have changed my views on this, when I first got into the hobby I was probably like the majority and saw a pretty snake, didn't care or have a clue what is was or how it got that way, its all aesthetics, but then you see a bigger picture..
Hell there are already wild intergrades in the Royal, soon there will be god knows what will be in our national parks.. But hey I guess if there all under the 1 class then who cares right?
Jonno from ERD
Very Well-Known Member
I don't think that taxonomists take the effects of their work on captive animals into consideration.
My understanding of taxonomy is very basic, but it is my understanding that there needs to be morphological differences to warrant the description of a new species. Colouration means little, and if it didn't, we would have about 5000 species of Tiger Snakes alone. As you know, the difference between nearly all the Morelia spilota group is simply colouration.
From memory, the classification of those three subspecies of Carpet Python was the result of DNA work, which isn't really able to be argued. I can not for the life of me recall the author of the paper, so if anyone can, please let me know and I will try and obtain a copy.
The solution to the problem is to simply breed locality specific animals. That way regardless of what taxonomy does, the animals will always remain pure.
Regardless, the topic is about Dan Gilbertsons Gosford locale pythons, which produced some very individual looking animals.
My understanding of taxonomy is very basic, but it is my understanding that there needs to be morphological differences to warrant the description of a new species. Colouration means little, and if it didn't, we would have about 5000 species of Tiger Snakes alone. As you know, the difference between nearly all the Morelia spilota group is simply colouration.
From memory, the classification of those three subspecies of Carpet Python was the result of DNA work, which isn't really able to be argued. I can not for the life of me recall the author of the paper, so if anyone can, please let me know and I will try and obtain a copy.
The solution to the problem is to simply breed locality specific animals. That way regardless of what taxonomy does, the animals will always remain pure.
Regardless, the topic is about Dan Gilbertsons Gosford locale pythons, which produced some very individual looking animals.
Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
"classification of those three subspecies of Carpet Python was the result of DNA work" turned out to be a great thing for some breeders to justify the hybridising of different animals in the hobby.I have heard talk of this paper like most others have but have never been able to find it yet alone read it.Anyone else read the paper I wonder?
"As you know, the difference between nearly all the Morelia spilota group is simply colouration"
No.. size, location, pattern, colour.
If this DNA were true, then there would already be only 3 classes. Clearly it hasn't been proved or who ever did it has little respect from those who draft these classes.
"The solution to the problem is to simply breed locality specific animals. That way regardless of what taxonomy does, the animals will always remain pure."
Yeah right.. Are you serious? You think 99% of the keepers here care about locale specifics. Not a chance, thats a great dream mate and one day lets hope it raises to 10%. In the mean time, back on planet earth, this is not going to happen, even worse, if your so called 3 classes ever came in, not only wont there be locale specific, there will be endless stupid hyrbids being produced.
I don't know alot about taxonomy either, and the Tiger snake example is a good one sure. But there had to be a reason to divide the Morelia Spilota Group up, which was stronger than the same reason to do so in the Tiger Snakes. At the end of the day as Ramsayi said, a Tiger is a Tiger, but a Diamond is NOT an intergrade.
No.. size, location, pattern, colour.
If this DNA were true, then there would already be only 3 classes. Clearly it hasn't been proved or who ever did it has little respect from those who draft these classes.
"The solution to the problem is to simply breed locality specific animals. That way regardless of what taxonomy does, the animals will always remain pure."
Yeah right.. Are you serious? You think 99% of the keepers here care about locale specifics. Not a chance, thats a great dream mate and one day lets hope it raises to 10%. In the mean time, back on planet earth, this is not going to happen, even worse, if your so called 3 classes ever came in, not only wont there be locale specific, there will be endless stupid hyrbids being produced.
I don't know alot about taxonomy either, and the Tiger snake example is a good one sure. But there had to be a reason to divide the Morelia Spilota Group up, which was stronger than the same reason to do so in the Tiger Snakes. At the end of the day as Ramsayi said, a Tiger is a Tiger, but a Diamond is NOT an intergrade.
waruikazi
Legendary
After 12 pages Pugs i think we can sum up your argument pretty simply. You do not beleive that these snakes were bred from pure diamonds because of what they look like despite of the breeders claims that they were bred from pure diamonds.
No offence intended but who are we to trust about the purity of these animals, someone who has seen a couple of pics of them or the breeder?
No offence intended but who are we to trust about the purity of these animals, someone who has seen a couple of pics of them or the breeder?
That's quite the summarised version of a conclusion you have there. But non the less it is reasonably accurate.
My point MAINLY was to find out the exact difference between the two, Diamond and Intergrade. No one came up with one. Meaning we should stick to the ones already noted in the books written on the species. According to those, and my own opinion, (again, for what its worth) I believe they have Intergrade in them. Why, because thats exactly what they look like.
The other point, was that if we start calling snakes with patterns like those 'pure diamonds' hybrid breeders, and intergrade owners will be laughing when they put 3 times the price tag on the animals they own as they will now be passed off as Diamonds. But, no one seems to give a damn about that so who cares right?
My point MAINLY was to find out the exact difference between the two, Diamond and Intergrade. No one came up with one. Meaning we should stick to the ones already noted in the books written on the species. According to those, and my own opinion, (again, for what its worth) I believe they have Intergrade in them. Why, because thats exactly what they look like.
The other point, was that if we start calling snakes with patterns like those 'pure diamonds' hybrid breeders, and intergrade owners will be laughing when they put 3 times the price tag on the animals they own as they will now be passed off as Diamonds. But, no one seems to give a damn about that so who cares right?
waruikazi
Legendary
This is a very good point. Unfortunately i do not think there is a solution for this kind of problem, which is one of the reasons why i don't and never really plan on owning diamonds or caostals. And if i were to own either of those species (or sub species) they would need to come from a very reputable breeder.
not wanting to get involved, and pugs, boa, dan are all herpers i respect,
but pugs what your trying to say is these snake can't be diamonds because they look like intergrades,
now we have seen the parents and they 100% look like diamonds, am i right?
so now we are to believe that the pure looking diamonds are intergrades, do you see my point, we are to believe that even though dans parents look like diamonds they have to be intergrades because some of the hatchlings from 2 pure looking diamonds look like intergrades,
but pugs what your trying to say is these snake can't be diamonds because they look like intergrades,
now we have seen the parents and they 100% look like diamonds, am i right?
so now we are to believe that the pure looking diamonds are intergrades, do you see my point, we are to believe that even though dans parents look like diamonds they have to be intergrades because some of the hatchlings from 2 pure looking diamonds look like intergrades,
Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
Three possibilities with the original pics.
1.Someone is genuinely mistaken with the history of the parents.
2.Diamonds can and do look like the ones pictured.
3.Someone is flat out telling porkies.
I know which one I believe.
1.Someone is genuinely mistaken with the history of the parents.
2.Diamonds can and do look like the ones pictured.
3.Someone is flat out telling porkies.
I know which one I believe.
pugs not having a go at you, but these are your words from your own thread about diamonds,
"Intergrade, but thats def not to say it might be a diamond or anything else for that matter!
But for me, the joined rosettes are defintately intergrad'ish.
As I said though you can have intergrade looking Diamonds, and Diamond looking intergrades.
Either way, its one HOT snake."
this was taken from the thread linked below page 5 post number 68,
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64612
just wanting to direct you back to your own words, also on page one, post number 9 you again state that there can be exceptions
no offence meant pugs, just trying to get the reasons you now say they can't look like an intergrade and be a diamond
"Intergrade, but thats def not to say it might be a diamond or anything else for that matter!
But for me, the joined rosettes are defintately intergrad'ish.
As I said though you can have intergrade looking Diamonds, and Diamond looking intergrades.
Either way, its one HOT snake."
this was taken from the thread linked below page 5 post number 68,
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64612
just wanting to direct you back to your own words, also on page one, post number 9 you again state that there can be exceptions
no offence meant pugs, just trying to get the reasons you now say they can't look like an intergrade and be a diamond
Absolutely and because I know and trust the breeder that is what makes all this so frustrating on one hand but somewhat comical on the other.
cockney red
Very Well-Known Member
Ramsayi, you summed it up for me. In the end we're talking about what the individual is willing to pay for an obviouse bit of tampering in the bloodline, in the past. I do believe, however that their are enough keepers out there, going by the sensible posts, to at least ensure the authenticity of true Diamonds, will always be there for those apreciaters among us.
waruikazi
Legendary
How can you be so sure that the blood line is not what the breeder is saying it is?
Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
I guess it could be just the same as ,how can you be sure that the bloodline is what the breeder is saying?
waruikazi
Legendary
I don't hink i have said that they are, but if we can't go on the word of a reputable breeder what can we go on?
Pony..
You have correctly pointed out what I said, and I stand by it, of course there are exceptions. TO A POINT. I am willing to accept that the 5th photo I posted in this thread is a Diamond, it DOES have joined rosettes IN PLACES but in my opinion it would be towards the boundary of being classed a Diamond. That and the fact it is 100% Campbelltown line...
But the snakes here are FAR to far outside of the limits of the Diamond characteristics, no exceptions can be made here. IMO. There is just too much that is NOT Diamond about them.
I know the parents are 'apparently' pure. But the parents MAY look Diamond and be intergrade, hell the way 90% of people here class snakes then they apparently SHOULD be intergrades. Im not disputing the parents however, I AM disputing the parents parents. Or any other generation. There IS intergrade in them IN MY OPINION.
Now your all entitled to yours, and I have spoken to Matt out of the public eye about these and there are no issues at all. So at the end of the day, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I would like Serp's opinion on this though, if there is ANYONE I would listen to on Diamonds, and pure ones at that, it is him.
You have correctly pointed out what I said, and I stand by it, of course there are exceptions. TO A POINT. I am willing to accept that the 5th photo I posted in this thread is a Diamond, it DOES have joined rosettes IN PLACES but in my opinion it would be towards the boundary of being classed a Diamond. That and the fact it is 100% Campbelltown line...
But the snakes here are FAR to far outside of the limits of the Diamond characteristics, no exceptions can be made here. IMO. There is just too much that is NOT Diamond about them.
I know the parents are 'apparently' pure. But the parents MAY look Diamond and be intergrade, hell the way 90% of people here class snakes then they apparently SHOULD be intergrades. Im not disputing the parents however, I AM disputing the parents parents. Or any other generation. There IS intergrade in them IN MY OPINION.
Now your all entitled to yours, and I have spoken to Matt out of the public eye about these and there are no issues at all. So at the end of the day, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I would like Serp's opinion on this though, if there is ANYONE I would listen to on Diamonds, and pure ones at that, it is him.
Nephrurus
Very Well-Known Member
CHeck out these Pugsley, maybe you identify the hybrids and the intergrades in there. I bet you can't pick them.
-H
-H
- Status
