Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[Ramsayi]

LOL, your right to a certain extend although sarcasm has crept in a bit there! You hit the nail on the head with NPWS paperwork being a breeze....and admistrating the paperwork from their end will also be a breeze....understand?
Who are these breeders who say that...ie, "these are X's, but keep it quiet" expose them, as I am curious myself from that comment! Or don't you have the Balls to put your money where your mouth is?
Have you purchased from the alleged breeders?
Your in the know, enlighten us, or PM me with the breeders YOU know of, or is it here say and rumour? OR do you want to purchase from them in the future?

Keep fishing mate although nothing is biting.On the subject of have I purchased from these people in the past or future the answer is NO.Anyone who involves themselves in breeding this crap is on my never to deal with list.

 

[thals]

4th option for me, keep things pure... Though I do still respect and appreciate the animals that are of crossed lineage, it would DEFINETLY NOT be something I'd encourage by breeding such animals on purpose.

I believe cross breeding snakes should be illegal in all states, not just QLD, just MHO though.

Cheers everyone 8)

 

[cockney red]

No! we dont understand mr know it all. Stop alluding, and spit it out.

LOL, your right to a certain extend although sarcasm has crept in a bit there! You hit the nail on the head with NPWS paperwork being a breeze....and administrating the paperwork from their end will also be a breeze....understand?
Who are these breeders who say that...ie, "these are X's, but keep it quiet" expose them, as I am curious myself from that comment! Or don't you have the Balls to put your money where your mouth is?
Have you purchased from the alleged breeders?
Your in the know, enlighten us, or PM me with the breeders YOU know of, or is it here say and rumour? OR do you want to purchase from them in the future?

 

[amazonian]

LOL, your right to a certain extend although sarcasm has crept in a bit there! You hit the nail on the head with NPWS paperwork being a breeze....and administrating the paperwork from their end will also be a breeze....understand?
Who are these breeders who say that...ie, "these are X's, but keep it quiet" expose them, as I am curious myself from that comment! Or don't you have the Balls to put your money where your mouth is?
Have you purchased from the alleged breeder
Your in the know, enlighten us, or PM me with the breeders YOU know of, or is it here say and rumour? OR do you want to purchase from them in the future?

It is quite obvious that breeders are selling x bred snakes as pures. You can see it quite clearly just by searching through some of the posts here. There has been a multitude of "check out my new *add species here* " threads where the (usually a new keeper) thinks they just scored a great purebred species when infact it was quickly pointed out by numerous members that it was a mongrel/mutt.

 

[ad]

Guess which one I picked,
Keep them pure, It is our Australian wildlife we are entrusted to keep on license.
If you can't respect that - then maybe you should just get a cat, dog, rabbit etc.
We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,
improve on it here - we are 20 years behind them on hybridizing but 20 years in front of them for Pure animals.
If they ever allow legal exporting of our reptiles - guess which ones the yanks will want??

 

[whiterabbit]

Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species.
As a side question, what kind of sub-species are out there that are under debate? does this generally refer to the genus Morelia?

Cheers
WR

 

[rockman]

What about everyone classes all Morelia as the same thing and throws everything together?We could then just have one type of Morelia maybe we could call it Morelia.s.mutt.

At least that way everyone would know what they actually have in their collections and there would be no need to keep too many like we currently do if we want all the different types currently on offer.NPWS paperwork would be a breeze as well just one species code.

Another thing that amuses me no end is that some of the more well known breeders (you know who you are and others have taken note) are crossing stuff but are doing it quietly,even going as far as telling potential buyers to "keep it to yourself" as to where it came from.Now if they feel the need to cross things and in their own eyes see nothing wrong with it then why be so secretive about it? Have the balls to at least stand by the decision you made!

Ramsayi , are you saying that there is well known breeders out there breeding cross-breeds .

SHAME SHAME SHAME .

Do you think that they will stand up to be counted ? , i doubt it .
I heard that there was going to be alot of albino cross( with what-ever is in the room at the time ) things coming out of the woodwork from last years breeding . Maybe they where all "accidents " . LOL

 

[Southside Morelia]

Of course you wouldn't...LOL... I can only surmise from what is happening in the hobby and what is happening with Licensing changes and talking with people WHO ARE ALOT MORE EDUCATED than yourself in this field.
Let's wait and see what happens, IF I am wrong and things stay as is, I will be the first person to admit my foresight and information given to me to date was incorrect...and I expect you to say, well you were right if it happens...mutual respect hey!
Cheers
scott.

No! we dont understand mr know it all. Stop alluding, and spit it out.

 

[ihaveherps]

Stimsons are split taxonomically into two..... antaresia stimsoni and antaresia stimsoni orientalis.

 

[amazonian]

Not fishing Ramsayi and I want to keep the debate civil, back up your allegations with fact or don't say it! Simple!
We all have similar views and opinions on this topic as we all don't want to taint our hobby like it has OS...but remember the=se are our Native specie, in the US and Europe they aren't and we don't export to them anymore anyway!
Sooo, I know for a fact that countless top breeders will keep breeding pure local sub-species in the future...we love them and personally, that's all I keep, but you can't stop people from x breeding...so from an educated standpoint it has to be managed.... IMO, I don't think Australia will follow the path of the OS Countries purely because we have the Natural resource at our back doors and people like US are passionate about keeping our species pure...doesn't mean we can't have designer morphs/hybrids as well...IMO
People who are that irresponsible to let them go or let them escape, shopuldn't own snakes to start with!
Cheers Scott.
PS. Have a great night, it's dinner tiome!

You want to keep it civil yet you resorted to name calling? Ironic huh.

I don't know about you but common sense tells me that if a purist keeper resents with disgust a breeder that pollutes our hobby with mongrel trash, than it is most likely that purist keeper wouldn't associate with the cross breeder. Yet you expect the purist to be on 1st name basis with the scum breeder lol. Ironic huh.

 

[disasterpiece7.0]

Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species.
As a side question, what kind of sub-species are out there that are under debate? does this generally refer to the genus Morelia?

Cheers
WR

As far as I understand it, we're only speaking in terms of sub species, mainly in the morelia genus. Animals of the same sub species but different locales can be crossed without objections. Tully jungles and palmerstones for example.

 

[Southside Morelia]

Well do the right thing and tell the masses that you know that the snake that that poor unsuspecting purchaser is buying is a X or Hybrid... How do you know? There are that many variations in pattern, colour in most specie, as well as the hard work our top breeders are doing to breed the best looking morph or whatever of that type of snake. Unless, it's completely obvious!
Please, again, *** are you saying, back up your statements with fact!

It is quite obvious that breeders are selling x bred snakes as pures. You can see it quite clearly just by searching through some of the posts here. There has been a multitude of "check out my new *add species here* " threads where the (usually a new keeper) thinks they just scored a great purebred species when infact it was quickly pointed out by numerous members that it was a mongrel/mutt.

 

[natrix]

Isn't ticking the last box.......'would keep but not breed' ....kinda supporting the activity of breeding them anyway ?

 

[amazonian]

When a diamond shows saddles or a coastal shows rossettes you know it is a cross breed.
Don't take the majority here as fools, we do know the difference between a coastal & a diamond. It has been pointed out NUMEROUS TIMES by the MASSES. Do a search, I am not your bat boy to do your work for you, if you are interested in knowing or seeing the facts then use the search function.

Why is it you want the name of a cross breeder anyway?
Are you in the market? :lol:

 

[ihaveherps]

Southside, i wish you were able to hold a civil debate at all. Stop typing before you hurt yourself.

 

[smacdonald]

Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species.

In an ideal world, when someone formally describes a subspecies they should provide enough information to let someone else identify that subspecies. So if you bought an animal as Antaresia stimsoni and you want to know if you've got the A. s. orientalis subspecies or the A. s. stimsoni subspecies, you should be able to get the original description of the subspecies and compare the characteristics the author used to differentiate the new subspecies (in this case A. s. orientalis) from the 'original' type (A. s. stimsoni).

The characteristics used to differentiate subspecies will generally be morphological (e.g., one subspecies has <220 ventral scales and the other has > 220 ventral scales). My understanding is that it's not enough to just say subspecies A occurs in the west and subspecies B occurs in the east. It may be the case that the two subspecies are found in different areas (in fact, I think it would be unusual to find two subspecies living in the same area), but there need to be additional points of difference before the subspecies will be widely recognised.

For those of you playing at home, I believe the publication in which the two A. stimsoni subspecies were first described is:

Smith L A 1985. A revision of the Liasis childreni species-group (Serpentes: Boidae). Records of the Western Australian Museum 12 (3): 257-276

I don't have a copy of this article, so I can't tell you what the differentiating characteristics are.

Does that answer your question in a long-winded fashion?


Stewart

 

[whiterabbit]

thanks reptilesDownUnder, that does shed a bit more light on the topic for me. I guess this type of debate is going to be very dynamic and keep changing with research, as if some sub-species are not fully recognized in a wild population than the captive population is probably never going to be as strict on the individual recognition of sub-species (in particular cases) and in turn the breeding of these species.

I just had a lecture today on breeding captive wildlife (not reptiles specifically, but interesting), and as the main aim of breeding wildlife is typically seen as a conservation technique, i suppose an argument for this topic could be that the further away from the wild phenotype and genotype we get the less reliable the "back up" captive population is. However what are peoples opinions on this, do you view that breeding snakes as a recreational activity can be viewed the same as those bred for conservation?

Cheers
WR

 

[cris]

As far as I understand it, we're only speaking in terms of sub species, mainly in the morelia genus. Animals of the same sub species but different locales can be crossed without objections. Tully jungles and palmerstones for example.

Hopefully many ppl would see both as potentially the same, if you are mixing localaties you are breeding hybrids.

 

[slacker]

I'd suggest there would be very few people on here who have bred reptiles that haven't produced hybrids by your definition then, cris.

How many people actually asked what locality their animals are? How many people were given an answer? How many people were given an honest answer? Unless your animals are WC by yourself, you have no certain way to know the locality of the animal. Anyone can say an animal is from locality X, but that doesn't mean it is.

 

[Australis]

We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,

Thats pretty much it for me in a nut-shell also, natural variation is something to treasure - not wash away.

I think half the seppos, hell actually im sure most of them would turf their jaguar carpets in a heart beat for the chance to keep some real carpets like those we have in this fine country of ours, i actually feel sorry for the poor mongrels.

And for those who think America is, in some way ahead of us in any positive regard you really should jump on
a plane sometime and see what its really like, its nothing special really, the hobby is bigger because hell
North America has a far larger population than we Australians for a start, we have a TINY population here
quality not quantity is the way i look at it.