Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[Australis]

. I find this very confusing. How many times have animals been reclassified in the past only to be changed back to what was thought of their genetic link previously. I can see the point in not breeding different species to each other, but sub species whats the big deal!

What is only a sub-species now could be lifted to full species status at a later point also..?

The definition of hybrid might not of included sub-species, but i think it would be far to consider
them as "different varieties ... or races. ", thats the way i see it atleast, although im no expert on
taxonomy.

 

[cris]

Basically a hybrid is anything that comes from parents with differant genes, virtually every reptile(to some extent) except clones... an intraspecific hybrid is a cross of sub species and an interspecific hybrid is between differant species, not sure what crossing with a differant genus is called though.

Saying a reptile comes from a locality means it simply came from a ceratin area, nothing to do with taxonomy. Reptiles from differant areas will generally have greater genetic variation than those in the same area, therefore crossing them will make unatural hybrids.

 

[ravensgait]

Jeez Ad, I can't think of any carpet other than an Albion that I'd toss all my Jags for but then again I wont have to as some how the Albino's are out from down under. And I can't think of any Aussie reptile that I'd give up my Boeleni,Nauta's,Mol's,Papuan's,Emeralds both Northern and Basin, Amazon's, Grenada Banks tree boas, MAD's,BCI's, Dun's, Chondro's Ball's,Annulated's and there are many others that I now have or have had in my collection . So no I wouldn't give up anything to have one of your snakes heck I can get Jags, Zebra's Granites ETC ETC and yeah you can say you don't like them but I and most others seem to think they are rather nice. I have Carpets that came from Zoo's with locality collection data so getting Locality Coastals, Diamonds ETC isn't impossible for us. So please don't feel sorry for us we have the rest of the worlds animals to choose from.

And Jeremy was right Carpets are not the most popular snake here or in Europe, the Ball is king with the Boa running a close second and I think the corns and kings blow them all out of the water,. Carpets are a ways down the list and BHP and Woma's ETC are even farther down so don't delude yourself. From a price point Carpets are pretty inexpensive you can find them for as little as 75 bucks with Morphs running up to the thousands. BHP and Woma's used to cost a bit but as they become more common their prices are falling, you can get a Woma baby for a few hundred these days. I wont go into what some of the Balls have gone for or what a nice Basin Emerald would cost you or a really nice Chondro morph.

You also seem to forget than when most the carpets came into this country and Europe they were all considered one subspecies yeah people forget that some person just decided one day to separate them. So is it any wonder that after they were separated that we had a bunch of what where now crosses? Yeah only Crosses they are the same species even now. Sure we still cross them, hey there have been some pretty wild looking critters produced and from the popularity of some of these crosses I'd say that although you may not like them others do.. Funny how you seem to think what you like is more important than what others like..

Me I am for breeding and keeping what you want to have, it is no ones business what I decide to breed and here I am free to breed what I want to. Hey you don't like the looks of crosses and hybrids no big deal I can think of a number of animals that I don't really care for but then I don't visit the lizard forums or the Hot's forums ETC ETC and tell them I think their animals are ugly nor do I tell them they shouldn't breed them just because I don't like them. Funny how many people seem to feel the need to tell others what they should and shouldn't do with their animals. I guess that's just one difference between us .. Randy

 

[ravensgait]

Chris, Hybrid "" is the result of interbreeding between two animals or plants of different taxa . Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or Crosses.""

Breeding two different Carpets together is a Cross.. Randy

 

[ad]

Sorry Randy, I don't know which comment of mine you are referring to,
I said if we could legally export - yanks would buy our pure specimans before they would buy hybrids that some clown here 'developed'
I stand by that comment.
As already stated - you have your sand pit - we have ours - that is how you prefer ours - we prefer ours pure, you cant even justify why, you just keep spewing the same rubbish. At least we have valid reasons that a lot of herpers see value in, and hopefully the Australian hobby can be something we can be proud of.
Convince me to cross breed my snakes - give me some valid reasons too, we don't have any of the 'excuses' for cross breeding you have put forward in your same old arguement - except the 'freedom of choice' rubbish.
How many aussies are here backing you up Randy - how is the poll looking?

 

[FNQ_Snake]

Nope, you don't see people trying to fit Ford parts on a Holden.

Why change a beautiful animal?

 

[smacdonald]

What i dont get is that the definition of a hybrid: The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races. I cant seem to find any mention of it being on a subspecies level? Is this because locality animals are judged according to their appearance and colour? Wich is of absolutely no importance when it comes to proper taxonomy. Pardon my ignorance, I'm just trying to make sense of what the real issue is. So some private keepers came up with names for different localities, where these locality animals scientifically scrutinised to justify their naming? Also, how many times does nomenclature get revised as our understanding of it increases. Hybrids between species also produce unviable offspring? If these snakes were so different why do their offspring hybrids breed then? Sorry so many questions. I find this very confusing. How many times have animals been reclassified in the past only to be changed back to what was thought of their genetic link previously. I can see the point in not breeding different species to each other, but sub species whats the big deal!

Hi Cordylus,

I'll do my best to answer some of your questions. It's taken me a while to type this, so others may have responded in the meantime.

Part of what makes talking about subspecies hard is that there's no official definition for a subspecies. Subspecies differ from each other, but not enough to warrant being split into a separate species. The meanings of the terms 'subspecies' and 'race' are very similar.

A problem in understanding taxonomy comes from it being unnatural. A species is really an endpoint of evolution, but evolution hasn't stopped (so how do you find its end?), and different taxa may be at different 'points' of evolution.

Species and subspecies are very abstract and subjective taxa. You can use genetics to determine other levels of classification (like family, class, order, etc), but the lowest levels of classification are basically subject to opinion.

So some private keepers came up with names for different localities, where these locality animals scientifically scrutinised to justify their naming?

If an animal comes from a particular location, there's no need for science to verify that. An Alice Springs woma comes from Alice Springs.

how many times does nomenclature get revised as our understanding of it increases

You've hit the nail on the head there. 30 years ago, all carpet snakes from north or east Australia were Morelia spilota variegata (I think that's correct). They've since been split into a number of subspecies. Prior to them being officially split, breeding a carpet from Brisbane with one from Darwin wouldn't have been classed as hybridising, as they both were the same subspecies. This may well happen again in the future with other species. Many people are aware of this, which is why they only breed animals from the same locality. The chances of two animals of the same species from the same location later being split into two separate subspecies is very low.

I know there are other members of this forum that have a better understanding than I of taxonomy and genetics, so if I've made any mistakes above, please correct me.

This thread has degenerated into name calling, so I'm going to end my involvement with it. It's a shame it's come to this, as I think this is a very interesting topic.


Stewart

 

[lizard_lover]

orr yeaa

 

[Beano05]

Nope, you don't see people trying to fit Ford parts on a Holden.

sorry I know this off topic but custom cars sometimes have parts from different cars I know a nice Hilux with a lexus v8 engine

sorry

no from me about xbreeding

 

[ravensgait]

Oops sorry that part was in response to Alstralis

See that's the thing Ad, I don't want to make you do anything. I feel you should be able to breed what you like but you don't seem to offer others that same respect now do you. I make no excuses and have not offered any for breeding what I want to breed. If I breed crosses or Hybrids it is because I want too, simple as that and well because I can.

I do like the something to be proud of comment LOL yeah you can be real proud of trying to shove your version of how it is down others throats. What is that Valid reason ? I haven't seen one yet , well other than it isn't legal in many places over there. I am not trying to convince anyone to breed anything . As I keep saying I'm not like you I don't feel I have the right to tell other what they can and can't breed.

Yep same old comebacks to the same old BS of people who feel they have the right to tell others what to do. Hey if you don't like it then stop trying to dicktate. I really wonder why people like yourself feel they have any right to try and tell others what they can and can't do?

You know you could start a poll asking who does illegal drugs and I bet you'd get a few brave honest souls who'd take the risk and admit it but I bet most even if they had would vote 'no never tried em" LOL I'm not really all that surprised by the results but then there are respondents who feel that breeding different localities together are hybrids, not trying to single anyone out but there does seem to be a prevailing lack of knowledge of the subject by many here..

Though I am surprised no one has tossed out the impact making crosses and hybrids has on those wanting so called pure animals(whole nother argument there) or that those who make crosses and hybrids are responsible for someone else misrepresenting them ETC ETC there I thought you and Aus could use some help so tossed ya a bone..

Hey am I the only one to notice how much nicer it is to refer to someone by name instead of a silly user name? Not to mention that by ending your post with your name sort of gives you ownership of your words you know not ashamed of what you wrote ETC..Randy

 

[ad]

So, the whole 'freedom of speech' thing has you bothered?
"don't think I have the right to tell others what they can and can't do".
Glad you think I wield so much power over the herp community. I dont hold a big stick over every herper telling them what to breed - what 'right' have you got to suggest that?
I am giving forward advice, opinions and reasons - so are you - but yours about the fact that I shouldnt? - rather than anything about cross breeding animals rights or wrongs?
Youv'e lost track of any debating about cross breeding pros and cons, Im not interested in debating your "rights to free speech" guff,

 

[Armand]

i like some of the nice colour morphs.. some look awsome and some dont i guess its a personal decision..

 

[FNQ_Snake]

sorry I know this off topic but custom cars sometimes have parts from different cars I know a nice Hilux with a lexus v8 engine

sorry

no from me about xbreeding

I was just trying to create a black & white definition. I have never heard of Ford parts on Holdens and I don't think people do it. That was just reinforcing. Oh, well...

I tried...

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Thats a good way of seeing it Randy, Why not attach your name to your insults. I will be first to go.
Nicole

 

[junglepython2]

i like some of the nice colour morphs.. some look awsome and some dont i guess its a personal decision..

A morph and a hybrid are two totally different things, its like trying to compare native snakes with domestic dogs.....

Most people don't have a problem with morphs, though some do prefer wild type animals but thats not really relevant to this thread.

 

[cris]

A morph and a hybrid are two totally different things, its like trying to compare native snakes with domestic dogs.....

Most people don't have a problem with morphs, though some do prefer wild type animals but thats not really relevant to this thread.

Dogs are a good example really(in this case), most domestic breeds are simply "morphs" created through line breeding and selection for weird/good looking/profitable traits or mutations, this is widely considered acceptable and even desired by many snake breeders. Compare a domestic dog to the wild type and its hardly the same thing IMO... yet when someone does the same thing rapidly through X breeding its the end of the world. This is where i get lost in the whole mob mentality on this issue, most see hybrids as being bad yet mutations and weird looking traits are seen as some sort of status symbol and often used by ____ to compare the status of herpetology in one country vs another :?

IMO there is trying to be close to wildtype or trying to be fake...

 

[ravensgait]

Quote""IMO there is trying to be close to wildtype or trying to be fake...""

Cris, why do you keep the reptiles you have? Is it because you like the way they look? I like snakes but the ones I keep are the ones I like the looks of.. Here The Ball python Morphs have been all the rage the last number of years. They are where the money has been, big money in some cases as much a 100 thousand dollars if you can believe some of those guys. I kept a few way back when and still have one now and then that I take in on a trade but don't keep them around long as I don't really care for their looks. They come in some killer colors and patterns but their build and duck looking heads just don't do anything for me.. I know of a number of people who keep and breed a number of Balls to finance what they truly love, not something I want to do.

I have some of the rarer animals like Boeleni, some would say they are a status symbol but I have them because they are without doubt about as good looking a snake as I've ever seen and are unusual in temperament as well. I also have a few crosses that I have for the same reason I like the way they look and have bred a few crosses as well such as my Super Nova Jags hey you'd have to have no heart beat to think they were not at the very least interesting looking critters.

I also have a number of what we call types as well as some locality animals and again because I like how they look. I like Coastals but can't say I like the looks of all that I have seen, not much for jungles but have seen a few I like and have a few of them. I noticed a few people in this thread say they only like the wild type looking animals, hey all well and good you like what you like.

Your analogy about dogs well I can't agree that they are morphs as many breeds that have been around awhile were bred for a reason I guess tools fits . The herding breeds, hunting dogs ETC were well, designed and built to do a specific job. People haven't built Morph snakes they have taken what nature made and I guess in some ways designed colors and patterns in them using what was already there. But if you really look at it like that anyone breeding for color and or pattern in any snakes is doing that same thing IE taking something natural and breeding it towards what that person prefers. Same could be said of those breeding Crosses and Hybrids they are trying to make something they like. Anyone breeding snakes is doing the same thing hoping to create something they like.

Some like to throw out the money thing as the reason people breed Crosses and hybrids, Hey in the food industry there is big money in Hybrids and crosses we eat the results everyday. But in snakes there isn't much money to be made with anything much less hybrids and crosses. Sure some few people have made a lot of money of Balls but most just make a little . I am also sure that like in breeding any animal some do it just to see if it can be done and what comes from the breeding.
Yet people accuse those breeding Crosses and Hybrids of doing it all for the money yet these same folks sell the animals they breed so go figure. It all comes down to what you want to have and I feel you should be able to have what you want.. I just don't like seeing people and their animals attacked and insulted because someone else disagrees with what that person likes and has. Randy

 

[ravensgait]

So, the whole 'freedom of speech' thing has you bothered?
"don't think I have the right to tell others what they can and can't do".
Glad you think I wield so much power over the herp community. I dont hold a big stick over every herper telling them what to breed - what 'right' have you got to suggest that?
I am giving forward advice, opinions and reasons - so are you - but yours about the fact that I shouldnt? - rather than anything about cross breeding animals rights or wrongs?
Youv'e lost track of any debating about cross breeding pros and cons, Im not interested in debating your "rights to free speech" guff,

No Add you are what many would call a Zealot, reason has little to do with your argument. You don't give out advice you try to intimidate others to your point of view and there is no reason in your argument you come across as it has to be Ad's way or the highway. (still having trouble owning your opinions I see) What discussion could there be with you. Your opinion is set in stone, a thousand years ago you'd have been yelling the earth is Flat!! and insulting and attacking anyone who disagreed. Facts and discussion are not something you're interested in you just seem to feel the need to rant about this subject. You don't like hybrids fine , Myself and others do so what is there to discuss? hey I tossed you a couple of bones a few post back but you didn't take them and run with it..

We also have the attacks and insults by you and your sidekick Australis on America and Europe. Hey I can understand the two of you being a little jealous as we can have and keep what we want but instead of insulting us why not work to change your laws so you too can have and keep what ever your heart desires and your wallet can handle.
It's strange, I know of a number of Aussies and folks from other countries that hang out now and then on our forums and I can't remember once seeing anyone attack or insult where they come from, kind of interesting that. Randy

 

[stevel]

yes i will cross the jags to anything that breaths !

 

[ravensgait]

LMAO Steve hope you don't have cats and dogs they might be a bit offended.. Randy