Banning Snakes in the USA - Next Australia?

[beatlloydy]

Only new to herps but I agree an organisation like NRKA is vital so we are ready to take on the beaurocrats if.when required. This would be ideal if senior members of herp societies could represent on the "board" or something similar.

Via this site I do see a lot of diverging opinions etc but my brief association with AHS (Austrlaian Herp Society) has led me to believe there are some very intelligent and sane people with herp interests and conservation of wildlife at heart. This makes me feel comfortable that herp interests and conservation can live together harmoniously.

Having these people represent us would make me feel like progress can be made. Perhaps national membership of NRKA could be an issue to take to local herp societies with every member receiving 1 vote on issues but board members receiving say 5 votes or something (as they are the ones prepared to put in time/effort)...as I can understand how the "lunatic fringe" could easily derail something as important as this.

Keep up the good work Jamie..sounds like you have our interests at heart.

 

[AnitaBlake]

Anita, respectfully, I have no understanding of what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that those who would threaten our hobby are reasoned, and reasonable, individuals...that they themselves are not organised into subtle but powerful and extensive lobby groups... that those with dishonourable or disruptive intentions exist only on our side of the fence? If we sit on our hands and be nice to everybody we will be steamrollered flatter than Sydney airport.

As far as a single representative body is concerned... a REPRESENTATIVE body is exactly what is envisaged. Problems just cannot be addressed satisfactorily by a rabble of smaller (read weaker) voices. Squeaky wheels have a habit of getting the oil - make no noise and the bearing may well seize before you know it's in trouble.

At best, any representative group can please most of the people some of the time, if you're lucky, maybe most of the time. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

Jamie.

Clearly, if what you took from what I said was that I thought the "threat" to our hobby are all reasonable and unorganised and that only hobbyists are dishonourable then you have misunderstood enitrely, either willfully or through hysteria. I would explain again, but I can see that you are far too carried away in this to truly give thought to the intention of anyone who doesn't see this issue exactly as you see it.

Ironically, I have already said that I see there is an agenda held by some in EPA like groups to keep us from doing what we love. I just don't think that standing in a stool, holding up our skirts and shrieking at the metaphorical mouse is the way to do it. It only blinds us to the complete picture and paranoia spreads to the point where anyone who expresses a slight divergence in view is seen as a threat.

 

[Daz_McC]

Ok. Don't believe me. What do the rabid animal liberation groups say about reptile keeping on their websites?

PETA. Doesn't even have an Australian website so they are clearly a real force here. Closest website is Asia-Pacific. Lots of campaigns mentioned but nothing on reptile keeping.

Animal Liberation. Campaign to ban the sale of dogs and cats in pet shops. No mention of reptile keeping.

Voiceless. Campaigns against factory farming, circuses and kangaroo meat. Nothing on reptile keeping.

But maybe it's a big secret conspiracy. Maybe these groups have infiltrated government departments and are just biding their time, trying to lull the reptile community into a false sense of security. Then before you know it... bam. Your door gets bashed down and a ranger is confiscating your reptiles. Get real.

If you want to worry about PETA hiding under your bed you're free to do so. Me, I'm going to have a long trouble-free sleep tonight.

 

[ozianimals]

First off, the laws need to be national not state before a national lobbying group would work.
Then what happens if the lobbying group has any control over herpers, they start telling us how we must do things. Look through all of the posts on this site and tell me the "experts" don't give conflicting advice based on their experience.
How could this possibly work. I don't need you to tell me how to keep my reps, and I'm sure you don't need me making rules for you on how to keep your animals. Otherwise all cats and dogs would be outlawed.
We have herp societies that could meet nationally and lobby against this, and my doctor going to parliment would have the same affect as me going.Your status or education don't change a governments agenda. The only way this could be solved is if everyone not just those on this site, does the right thing. We all know this will never happen.

 

[carpetmuncher]

With Americans as they are l can see many [ most ] snake owners , being faced with the handover of their pets for destruction , choosing to release them into the wild instead .

i think you're reading more into it. the legislation restricts interstate movements, not requiring animals being handed over for destruction. existing pets remain with their owners.

 

[moosenoose]

Pull your head out of the sand and read some of their websites, many of them are completely opposed to all pets, but they are more against keeping wildilfe. Sea kittens belong in the sea not in a fish tank

That's great Chris, thanks for the abundance of information you've supplied me with…..quite frankly I think you’re the one who needs to “pull your head out of the sand" :lol:

I'm not one for scaremongering, and I certainly DON’T believe or swallow the wad loads of dribble being thrashed about, or waved in front of my face unless it’s backed up with proof!! I've seen none here!! And nobody is supplying any!!! Don’t post me ridiculous animal liberation group websites and the like, show me where these people have a leg to stand on in relation to Australians keeping and breeding native reptiles!

Pit Bulls have been banned in this country for good reason! It’s due to people unable to control a dangerous breed of animal! The same thing has happened in the States! Should a breeder/keeper of scrub pythons cast a poor light on the herp industry in Australia, then it’s something we’ll have to wear! Do you think the Australian gun lobby, as powerful as it is, had a chance in hell of stopping the bill that made illegal large calibre semi-auto weapons? And all it took was one idiot to derail it! YOU ARE ALL KIDDING YOURSELVES if you think any group can stand up and defend the indefensible! What needs to happen here is tighter laws regarding “pythons over a certain size”, “venomous snake licensing” and probably a range of other issues to prevent mishaps from occurring! That’s not head-in-the-sand stuff, that’s common bloody sense!

I know there are animal rights activists, I’m not blind! Even Steve Irwin himself was against the general public keeping reptiles in private collections – that’s common knowledge! Does anyone on here honestly think this bill being passed in the States, for the banning of 9 large species of exotic python has been done for anything other than the right reasons?? The phrase “Something’s got to give” is what has happened here!

This thread would have read better if the doomsayers had simply said: Let's create a body that protects the general interest of herpetologists in this country, rather than the "sky-is-falling", "their coming for our guns" war-cries I keep hearing. Nothing gets my back up more than people telling me that mystery elements are at work undermining our interests, yet fail to produce proof to back those claims up! I’m not a “yes” man, and sure as hell I’m not a sheep either! Proof, proof, proof!

The Humane Society of the United States and the Humane Society Legislative Fund applaud the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee for approving S. 373, a bill to add certain constrictor snakes to the list of injurious species that cannot be imported or moved in interstate commerce as pets. The committee amended the bill to cover nine species of large constrictor snakes identified by the U.S. Geological Survey as posing high or medium risk to the environment.

Thanks for the link Mike, but it still doesn’t shed any light on why people are claiming we’re going to be targeted here. Personally, I can understand this bill, and the reasons it has been brought about. In hindsight, if you knew the damage some of these snakes have done, would you honestly still have allowed them in???? That’s the question that needs asking.

 

[Sdaji]

I am amazed to see some people playing this issue down!

What we have here is so-called "animal rights" groups doing whatever they can to get reptiles out of private hands using whatever excuse they can come up with. Keep in mind that this ban is only being attempted because the ban on all reptiles was successfully knocked back by those who did not fail to see the big threat, while those who said "Yeah, whatever, we'll be okay, it will never happen" stood by and did not help. If everyone had that attitude there would be a complete ban on the keeping of all native wildlife both here and in the USA.

Powerful groups such as the RSPCA and PETA actively seek to stop private individuals like you and me from keeping reptiles. It really is that simple. If you support them, you support a ban on our hobby.

Some people criticise me when I say these things, they do not believe me. If you do not believe me, send a polite email to RSPCA and ask them yourself what their stance on the keeping of reptiles by private individuals is. If you don't want to believe me, take it directly from the horse's mouth.

Absolutely, the excuse being used in the USA at the moment is not 100% relevant in Australia (but keep in mind that Scrub, Olive and other large pythons do not occur in most parts of Australia and almost never in the middle of our large capitals, so the issue does exist here). However, keep in mind that these extremist groups will use whatever excuse they can to encourage politicians to bring in restrictive laws, and keep in mind that politicians from Canberra are typically scared of snakes, and live in an area where large snakes such as Olives and Scrubs do not occur. The main platform taken by the RSPCA and PETA etc is "animal welfare" but they will use any excuse they can get at any given time.

We have a very real threat to our hobby, potentially a complete ban on the keeping of ALL native wildlife. If we can do anything to support those in the USA we will not only help them but also prevent a precedent which could bite us. If the proposal to ban the large pythons is accepted over there it will be a foot in the door for further restriction. Remember that if something like this can happen in USA, the 'land of liberty', it could very easily happen in Australia, the 'land of tight wildlife laws'.

It really does not help us to say "Oh, it will be okay, it will never happen here, relax, sit back, do not help". Even if you are convinced of that position, please, do not discourage others who may want to help. Even if you were correct, it would not be hurting if people were letting politicians and the RSPCA know that they support the keeping of native animals. It does not hurt to educate people about the benefits of wildlife in private hands.

Bans have already been brought in, in several countries, for all sorts of reasons. In some places such as Germany you are allowed to keep exotic animals but not natives! This highlights the fact that regulatory bodies and "animal rights" groups will have all sorts of strange reasons to do all sorts of strange things, and anything can happen. Without our support, crazy things will happen.

 

[Kurto]

Ok. Don't believe me. What do the rabid animal liberation groups say about reptile keeping on their websites?

PETA. Doesn't even have an Australian website so they are clearly a real force here. Closest website is Asia-Pacific. Lots of campaigns mentioned but nothing on reptile keeping.

Animal Liberation. Campaign to ban the sale of dogs and cats in pet shops. No mention of reptile keeping.

Voiceless. Campaigns against factory farming, circuses and kangaroo meat. Nothing on reptile keeping.

But maybe it's a big secret conspiracy. Maybe these groups have infiltrated government departments and are just biding their time, trying to lull the reptile community into a false sense of security. Then before you know it... bam. Your door gets bashed down and a ranger is confiscating your reptiles. Get real.

If you want to worry about PETA hiding under your bed you're free to do so. Me, I'm going to have a long trouble-free sleep tonight.

PETA is only one group and probably not the one we need to worry about in this country. I'd more worried about a whistle blower polly who's child gets bitten by a red belly while playing in a back yard. There's already enough negative and naive propaganda perpetuated though the main news papers over safety from native animals.

 

[RemoverAccount]

I better get my tinfoil hat on!

 

[Sdaji]

Moosenoose: If you are correct, and "something had to give" because the situation with huge snakes was getting ridiculous (which is perhaps quite true), what is needed is for the reptile community to form a self regulating body which puts restrictions on itself. There are many precedents of this happening with other industries. Where a body self regulates and does even a remotely good job, the government typically accepts it as the authority and allows it to do the job itself. Forcing the government to step in and create restrictive laws at the request of groups which want an entire ban is setting ourselves up for disaster. Surely that is obvious.

It seems that too few people understand this situation, and potentially things could go very badly. We really can't afford to be complacent here.

 

[MikeCurtin]

I understand this is a highly emotive issue, that there are some who are upset by the implications this law will have for them, and that there are some who are upset by the implications this law MIGHT have for them. But there's a great deal of rudeness, dismissiveness and unecessary hysteria coming across in some of these posts. I for one can't see how the formation of a national body to represent the needs of all keepers can be done fairly, if those who would be involved cannot manage to be respectful of of others solely because they have a difference of opinion. If even the people who see the need for diplomacy in such a situation can't manage it in a civil discussion on the issue, what hope is there? Having been involved in keeping snakes for a little while now, and knowing a number of people who have kept for decades (and being a human being!), I can safely say that there is simply no such thing as a completely fair, unbiased and diplomatic reptile keeper. There just isn't. I know some absolutely lovely people involved in this hobby who'd give you the shirt off their back and their last GTP just because they could, and even THEY can't manage to be completely unbiased and diplomatic. I freely admit I myself am incapable of always seeing past my feelings and putting them aside to further the needs of people I don't agree with.

If there are those of you who truly believe the only way to protect our rights is to form one group to get our cause heard then we're doomed already if this thread is any indication.

My old signature used to read: "Those who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, do so at the expense of their integrity and credibility." I rather like healthy debate. We, as humans, are an emotional little bunch! Remember, I have no dog in this hunt. I'm only here to convey a message in the best interests of the herpetocultural community. Please explain to me why you would point out the possible problems rather than the potential benefit of an organization aimed at preserving Aussie reptile keepers' common interests.

According to that document its only interstate movements that are affected? Its a trade ban. So people whos business is affected will be upset about this. Nobody needs to euthenase any animals. I can understand why they want to regulate these 9 species.


The bill would not affect possession or sales within a state. People would keep and retain responsibility for existing animals.


We are already regulated by our government.

So are we! With all due respect, these animals are already regulated on the state level. I'm in NJ, where the laws are so restrictive, that I sell my animals in NY and PA. I would be prohibited from doing this if this passes. Furthermore, once passed, S.373 can be amended to include all 45 species....this bill is not limited to the big 9. I guess the best you guys can do is either get organized before this happens, or pray you don't get hit with any national legislation.

Also, this bill would prohibit the captive reproduction of these animals. There has been language presented which would call for the euthanasia of animals born/hatched after the ban passes.

I have read this topic through and there are a lot of diverging opinions. However, I do believe that herp keepers are a minority voice in politics. Most of my friends do not understand the joy of keeping herps. They think the only good snake is a dead snake.

Animal rights lobby groups are quite strong in Australia so it is only a matter of time before we are in their sights. Many of them dont understand that a well kept snake has all its needs met. I take mine out several times a week and additional exercise is achieved there. I also observe it at night and they can be quite active...In the wild many dont travel long distances but stay close to known food sources. Many activists would not understand this.

The best way to approach this is to work on the premise that banning of reptiles could happen. That way if we are prepared we wont have any surprises. I urge all to join a herp group. Also, raise this topic in the next meeting as there are a lot of very experienced people at dealing with lobbying who can present a sane voice to beaurocrats.

The amount of money generated via the legal trade in herps would be quite significant. Personally, over the last 4 months I have spent more than $3000 investing in enclosures and reptiles (got quite a few on order).
This money is all part of the economy and does help with creating jobs and income for people.

I also urge all to refrain from the temptation to illegally keep exotics as a) this gives a bad rep to herpkeepers in general and b) we have such a unique flora/fauna that exotics could potentially pose a threat as the conditions would suit many of them if enough escaped or were let loose.

If we try and abide by the rules set down by various DECC departments and keep our reps as pure as possible this gives other lobby groups less targets to aim at.
As the current regulations stand I feel they are adequate and even agree with the NSW DECC guidelines so long as they dont become mandatory. These guidelines are perfect for new keepers to gain some basic understanding of what is required when purchasing a new reptile.

We do need a united front at State and Federal level and not adopt a head in the sand attitude...but probably no need to panic at this stage.

Hey, Anita...this guy sounds pretty reasonable. Not rude or argumentative or anything! Hehe.

 

[caustichumor]

I would like to see that amnesty, (if the laws where passed) We all take our reptiles down to the collection depot and feed them into a wood chipper. Big win for the animal lib front there.... ;-)

 

[MikeCurtin]

Thanks for the link Mike, but it still doesn’t shed any light on why people are claiming we’re going to be targeted here. Personally, I can understand this bill, and the reasons it has been brought about. In hindsight, if you knew the damage some of these snakes have done, would you honestly still have allowed them in???? That’s the question that needs asking.

No.....the question that needs asking is how can we correct this problem from a scientific standpoint without jeopardizing a $3B industry. In your opinion, how does this bill help solve the problem?

 

[MikeCurtin]

I would like to see that amnesty, (if the laws where passed) We all take our reptiles down to the collection depot and feed them into a wood chipper. Big win for the animal lib front there.... ;-)

If this bill passes, a friend of mine will not be able to keep and feed his animals. His sales pay for his husbandry expenses, as do most of ours. He plans on bringing his animals directly to his senator's office......ALL OF THEM!

 

[Weezer]

Do you think that this national group should be controlling over it's members in any way, or just used as a political lever?

Well we know what WE would like, but it's a catch 22; if the group is able to dictate terms and assume control over the way we do things, then there will be a rebellion, much like an APS argument except on a grander scale and with more venom (oun intended). However if the group has no control, then they will be seen as harmless and as a relatively minor threat to those that wish to destroy the hobby.

The way it would need to roll, in my worthless opinion, is that we would need to solicit members not just from our little circle here; but a few high profile members, not just the Bob Irwins of this world, but the celeb keepers, environmental groups, and, if any exist, major political party members who respect the hobby- because without access to media we will just look like a bunch of ferals trying to act out our Steve Irwin fantasies. The association in an ideal world would be an elected composition of commercial entities, government reps, environmental, domestic and international keepers and breeders- with complete transparency regarding decision making. In THAT perfect world the association would not be left or right leaning- but with the right make up of supporters could almost self regulate.

But pipe dreams like this will never come to fruition whilst we can't even agree on what constitutes a jag, or who has a right to help a newbie. Unity is the only way forward,but unfortunatley the only shot at the title we have would need a Union-like mentality, a clear set of rules, and a group consciousness to roll with the association's decisions if they are made with the best interests of the hobby in mind.

There are constant power struggles beneath the surface of Aussie keeping; between breeders, publications, regions, states, individuals, businesses....the list goes on. Having worked in many volunteer organistations, I have witnessedfirst hand the politics in smaller groups, let alone trying to unify a not-for-profit with no political swing trying to unify a bunch of outcasts like us who all think individually, have the balls to speak up, and who can't agree on much. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but let's be realistic here- those who have the ability to get the ball rolling are always going to succumb to the human instinct to dominate. There will always be someone pointing out the alterior motives, the inconsistency and the obvious hipocrisy in any decision made under the guise of community-interest.

I say enjoy our reptiles, and take good care of them. The only thing that will bring this hobby down are the idiots who make breeding decisions and import decisions for their own individual gain. All it will take is one decent bust by a well respected but dodgy breeder to draw media attention to us and bring the house crashing down. So behave yourselves because alot of us see what's going on....some of us are educated enough to realise that those who live in glass houses shouldnt go running outside to tell us our quiet shed is made of the same fragile material, when there are clearly alterior motives and a vested financial interest.



/

 

[AnitaBlake]

My old signature used to read: "Those who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, do so at the expense of their integrity and credibility." I rather like healthy debate. We, as humans, are an emotional little bunch! Remember, I have no dog in this hunt. I'm only here to convey a message in the best interests of the herpetocultural community. Please explain to me why you would point out the possible problems rather than the potential benefit of an organization aimed at preserving Aussie reptile keepers' common interests..

Put quite simply Mike, I don't see that there is much benefit in ONE representative group, especially not when the people who would claim to represent all keepers, and urge them to put aside differences to work together have already shown they are unable to put aside their own differences and take into consideration the opinionso of those on their side of the debate who would express a dfference of opinion. I also agree with the opinions JasonL has expressed on this matter.

Hey, Anita...this guy sounds pretty reasonable. Not rude or argumentative or anything! Hehe.

Makes a nice change from what I've seen here, doesn't it ?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Interesting that moosenoose and Daz_McC need proof in writing.

Of course these organisations are open to scrutiny and fully accountable for everything they do...NOT. Of course they will conspicuously pin their names to whaling, the live sheep trade, the mulesing debate and other issues about which there is considerable public disquiet, but their interest and influence is way more far reaching than that, and they don't flag their intentions by putting their plans on websites.

Moosenoose, you seem agitated by the debate so far. If you don't think there's a problem, that's fine, but why hang around in the thread? If it doesn't concern you, move on to something else that can consume your energy in a more positive manner. We'll be fine without you.

Jamie.

 

[AnitaBlake]

I truly don't see why it is we can't express a difference of opinion without being labelled uncaring or dissenting. Isn't there room for everyone's opinions here?

 

[MikeCurtin]

Put quite simply Mike, I don't see that there is much benefit in ONE representative group, especially not when the people who would claim to represent all keepers, and urge them to put aside differences to work together have already shown they are unable to put aside their own differences and take into consideration the opinionso of those on their side of the debate who would express a dfference of opinion. I also agree with the opinions JasonL has expressed on this matter.
Makes a nice change from what I've seen here, doesn't it ?

The benefit in ONE group is unity. Despite the heated debate, or perhaps as a result of it, a consensus may be made as to what is best for your Aussie reptile community. This is where your strength lies. 5 different groups pulling legislators in 5 different directions = DISASTER!!!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Anita, once again you are talking in riddles. If you are referring to my comments thus far, please feel free to mention me or to challenge me if you see fit - I can only answer your concerns if I know they have been generated by what I have said.

Frankly I think the debate here so far has been very organised and reasonably polite. I have expressed a few opinions, and suggested that those with nothing positive to add (this can be either supportive or otherwise, as long as it contributes SOMETHING) go elsewhere on the site, where their energies might be more usefully employed.

As far as the 'group' assuming control and dictating the way keepers do things - that is not the aim and will not happen. The 'group' involved at this early stage of the NRKA is largely made up of the same people who were negotiating with DECC in support of keepers in NSW recently. The outcome could have been very different if this was not the case.

Jamie.