Banning Snakes in the USA - Next Australia?

[Cheyne_Jones]

I totally agree with those who say that we should be prepared for anything when our government has the potential to end everything. It can happen and anything is possible when you have those opposed to what we do lobbying the right people.

Through my business I am constantly involved with various government departments and the stupid things they come up with and impose on us would blow your mind. We have just had a new standard imposed on a food product we manufacture that requires us to maintain levels of a certain compound 8 times lower than the previous standard and 5 times lower that the world health organisation standard, for no reason at all (ie you cant get sick from it, 1/3 of the worlds population lives on the stuff as a staple diet). The reason we could not get this standard amended or stopped is because our competition being major international companies had more money to spend lobbying the right people (even though we were spending 50k + per month).

So dont think governments wont stomp all over what you love for a reason you cant understand, they can and will if they get pressure in the right places.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Sorry, been busy since my last visit yesterday. I'm not surprised that the 'naive parochials' as I call them (moosenoose, Daz_McC, elapid@ come to mind...) can't see the forest for the trees. As has been pointed out (by me, I know!) this is not about reptiles, it's about political influence and power. We are just an easy target because reptiles are distasteful to many people, reptiles can and do kill people and can pose other threats, and in many cases they are kept by complete idiots (as are many other animals of course...).

It only takes one or two zealous animal rights people to occupy positions of influence in an appropriate government department to begin a process of philosophical change in that department. It happens slowly, but very subtly, and before you know what is happening there is a massive groundswell of negative sentiment generated.

Reptile keeping is very fertile ground for the 'anti wildlife keeping zealots'. It is still regarded as an odd pasttime by a large section of the community, many older bureaucrats (and the younger ones they mentor) rue the day keeping became legal in each of their states, politicians love issues where they can be seen to "please' the public, and as I have said earlier, many keepers are simply the worst advocates for the hobby/industry. So, we are a large and relatively easy target... and anyone who can't see this has their heads in the sand.

I absolutely acknowledge that any representative body has to be made up of knowlegeable, experienced, savvy individuals who are, above all, diplomatic. It is one of the primary reasons for the failure of lobby groups to get reptile keeping mainstreamed long before it actually became legal. A noisy bunch of bogans will achieve nothing. Despite what I have written here, there ARE two sides to any story, and if we want anyone to listen to our concerns, we need to be prepared to listen to theirs, and either acknowledge them as genuine, or offer good reasons why those arguments don't fly.

Be assured that in this game, nothing is ever to be taken for granted. The individuals employed by governments are just as good or even better than we are at developing strategies to achieve outcomes that suit them. In my experience, very few of them keep, or are even interested in, reptiles (in some states they are not permitted to!) so they are readily targetted by pressure groups.

The animal rights organisations are well funded, great strategists, and are politically active on a global scale. This is not a one-off threat to our right to keep and breed native animals - it will be constant and ongoing. If we don't maintain good dialogue with those who manage our hobby/industry, and we suffer damage because we are unaware of what's coming to get us... we only have ourselves to blame.

More on the NRKA later today.

Jamie.

 

[NickM]

The burmese python that killed a 2 year old child in Florida , the event that fueled this law , was only the size of an average coastal carpet. It was not a monster, just a skinny 2meter snake.

The first time some irrersponsible herpers pet python kills a child you will be facing a a similar situation. It WILL happen, eventually its bound to happen, and being organized and ready for it can save your hobby.

Nick

 

[Colin]

The burmese python that killed a 2 year old child in Florida , the event that fueled this law , was only the size of an average coastal carpet. It was not a monster, just a skinny 2meter snake.

The first time some irrersponsible herpers pet python kills a child you will be facing a a similar situation. It WILL happen, eventually its bound to happen, and being organized and ready for it can save your hobby.

Nick

wasnt there even some doubt that the python actually killed the child and was used as a cover up by the mother and boyfriend?

but I agree we definitely need to be organised into a co-hesive national group.. the sooner the better.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Indeed Nick, in fact it doesn't even need to happen here. The event can just be transposed across the Pacific, used an example of how dangerous even a 2m python can be, and off we go into battle... How many of us have carpets 2m and over - many, many of us...

Complacency is our worst enemy by far.

J.

 

[JasonL]

Complacency is our worst enemy by far.

J.

Maybe reptile licences should be harder to obtain, as atm anyone who knows nothing of snakes can buy a relatively large python... though of course that may turn some people off, but maybe thats not such a bad thing?

 

[zulu]

re Banning

The pressing issue in australia at the moment is the issueing of takers licenses by state governments trying to make a few dollars,this is an immediate problem,how many womas bhps and stimsons does calm need to take in west aussie ? They need a kick in the bum,thats a job for president zulu to send my fancy tongued NRKA diplomats to meet with CALM and rectify the situation.

 

[JasonL]

You'll need to send your very best tribesmen Zulu.... a risky assignment for sure.

 

[carpetmuncher]

Sorry, been busy since my last visit yesterday.

More on the NRKA later today.

sorry Jamie, i don't want this to sound like a personal attack, but it's like the Victorian Expo, no-one had enough time. if the nrka has been incorporated, is it a case that the people running it, don't have enough time to do it properly? has it been formed so as just to put a claim on the name? i cannot understand why there is talk about it for months, including an 'unveiling', yet everyone involved has been too busy.

can you really expect everyone to put their trust in a nrka that, like clubs, use the excuse 'we've been too busy' when things don't happen.

not attacking you jamie, but a lot of people to get involved with clubs and other organisations that cannot spend the time to perform their commitments properly.

i fully support a nrka concept, but not a casual one.

 

[MikeCurtin]

Maybe reptile licences should be harder to obtain, as atm anyone who knows nothing of snakes can buy a relatively large python... though of course that may turn some people off, but maybe thats not such a bad thing?

That sounds like a great idea. Also, if we make guns harder to obtain, criminals won't have them. Look, I live in a state that prohibits the keeping of venomous species without a scientific permit, which is very, very difficult to obtain. The result? The only people that have hots are people that are stupid enough to think they're going to get them to show off and be cool around their friend, and will never get caught. So, in essence, the people in my state that are currently keeping venomous and anacondas (also prohibited) are the exact people that shouldn't have them.

 

[Twin_Rivers]

I have been reading through this forum over the last couple of days, and in a small way understand the threat. Animal rights activists target groups that will give them good publicity, this is after all thier business, their income is sourced from donations so they spin lies and embelish in a way to get media attention. They focus on celebrities to back and support them who do it for the publicity it gets them, with little or no real understanding of the cause they are fighting against. Celebrities support ehn people who look up to these celebrities support it, more funding. This gets them media time and sway. They then will target specific large businesses and persuade people away from their products because they support animal cruelity. There for that company stops supporting that industry. What if AAE stopped transporting reptiles? What if the RSPCA brought in a law,after being lobbied by and Animal Rights group, that it is now illegal to breed animals solely for the purpose of food?
The aniaml rights groups will also get colour photos and video of animals kept in poor conditions or eating live animals and portray this as what reptile keepers as a whole do with their animals. People who do not like snakes will say eww a snake no one should be allowed to keep them, people with empathy will say they shouldn't be allowed to keep snakes like that either way anyone looks at it (apart from a small minority of rednecks) will say its wrong.
The Animal rights groups will take partitions and people with the best debating skills and put them in front of parliment, they will sit down with as many members of parliment as they can and talk to them showing them pictures signatures and making them think that the majority of the population feel the same way and it would be best to show thier support, after all politics is just a large popularity contest, if you don't get voted in you don't get paid. Groups such as PETA will make it a large part of any political parties agenda, even when more serious threats should be on top of the pile.
With out a national body noone will listen to the average joe from woop woop herp club who says " I look after my herps properly ........... hello, down here ....excuse me...." We Need a voice.
If you think the industry is to big that the economic impact will be to grerat for the government to react, it is only a few years ago that PETA attacked the Australian Wool Industry and won, an industry that is worth billions. The effect is yet to be seen as AWC negotiated to have a beeter alternative in place by 2010. there will be a lot less wool coming from rural Australia soon, that will bve a loss of jobs and businesses it has a potential to bankrupt much of the rural economy which is already struggling after years of drought. The CSIRO have come up with a few alternatives and breeding is developing sheep less susceptable to fly strike but there is nothing as cost effective and as efficient as Mulesing.
The Livestock Contractors Group were prepared with backing from a major chemical/drug company, and were still unable to over come the ferocity at which PETA attacked the practice.
We need to be organised, not to agree on everything, but to agree on that we want to keep having the priviledge of owning and breeding our beautiful pets.
Sorry for the long reply but it scares me to think that there are people with the wool over their eyes couldn't happen. It could happen I think we should be prepared even if nothing happens, we have air bags in our car might never use them either but I am glad they are there.
Regards,
Phil

 

[MikeCurtin]

Let's say I'm wrong though, let's see some "written" proof that animal activists are trying to derail the Australian herp community? So far I've seen guns compared to snakes, now anacondas compared to scrubbies. As they say in the movies "show me the money!"

Here's some money....be back soon....off to find some more. BTW, the HSUS has nothing to do with the actual Humane Society. They simply expanded upon the name to gain some credibility without having to actually earn it.

Senate Panel Approves Large Constrictor Snake Trade Ban : The Humane Society of the United States

 

[AnitaBlake]

I understand this is a highly emotive issue, that there are some who are upset by the implications this law will have for them, and that there are some who are upset by the implications this law MIGHT have for them. But there's a great deal of rudeness, dismissiveness and unecessary hysteria coming across in some of these posts. I for one can't see how the formation of a national body to represent the needs of all keepers can be done fairly, if those who would be involved cannot manage to be respectful of of others solely because they have a difference of opinion. If even the people who see the need for diplomacy in such a situation can't manage it in a civil discussion on the issue, what hope is there? Having been involved in keeping snakes for a little while now, and knowing a number of people who have kept for decades (and being a human being!), I can safely say that there is simply no such thing as a completely fair, unbiased and diplomatic reptile keeper. There just isn't. I know some absolutely lovely people involved in this hobby who'd give you the shirt off their back and their last GTP just because they could, and even THEY can't manage to be completely unbiased and diplomatic. I freely admit I myself am incapable of always seeing past my feelings and putting them aside to further the needs of people I don't agree with.

If there are those of you who truly believe the only way to protect our rights is to form one group to get our cause heard then we're doomed already if this thread is any indication.

 

[ozziepythons]

I can recall 15 years ago at a monthly Herpetological Society meeting in Adelaide, that a concern was addressed that a 'rabid' animal rights group was making moves to instigate a ban on keeping reptiles in captivity. I couldn't wrap my mind around it: who were these extremists who assumed enough power to derail us? Over the years since, my eyes have been opened and indeed such extremists exist, and regularly meet to consolidate their powers. Maybe not with reptile keepers completely at their mind's focus, but we are in their sites. As Simon pointed out in one of his posts and has remarked to me personally, they infiltrate government by becoming employees and work the system from the inside. Simon himself has come to loggerheads with such people when attempting to obtain approval for obtaining and captive breeding certain species (such as the Gammon Ranges Carpets).
These people, groups, etc., use unfortunate circumstances to push their agenda, such as the Burmese in the Everglades, and the young girl who was constricted and killed by an albino Burmese. Pythons have killed people in Australia before, and I know of one instance when a carpet python constricted a young boy in an attempt to consume him (he was alright). We must not leave ourselves vulnerable to knee jerk legislation.Therefore we must not be complacent about forming a national group, it is imperative and concerns me that it still has not happened after many years of discussion. The time is now. It must not follow the typical Australian trend of forming a group when an issue arises, as disbands as it recedes. It must be formed and increase in strength, be politically minded and extremely competent in its arguments. Otherwise, like the Barkers in the US, we have a lot to lose.....

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks Cm, I don't see that as a personal attack - quite a reasonable observation actually.

I do apologise for my low profile (lots of people would prefer it remain that way I guess!!!) over the past few months, but circumstances made it necessary at the time.

The main issue with any organisation is getting and retaining energetic people, and having an understanding of the obvious issues which need to be addressed, and also of the things which are bubbling along under the surface which require a certain sort of intuition, for want of a better word. Often, if there are no pressing or threatening matters on the horizon, things lapse until the next threat arises. Remaining motivated through all these cycles can be difficult for some people, especially if they are busy in other lives, which is probably most of us from time to time.

I've been a relative latecomer to the NRKA discussion, but it was formed by a group of 'senoir' herpers, for want of a better word, a couple of years ago, but never formally incorporated. This was done just recently by Peter Johnson, and I will publish the list of office bearers later today if I can get hold of Pete.

This intial management body is really an interim group made up of those who were first involved. It was not supposed to be more than a foundation group to allow us to begin discussions about structure, how it will operate state by state to be a truly national representative body, and the main issues we will face, both now and in the future. It will be a very large and time consuming task to get people together, achieve consensus (with herpers... you've got to be kidding...) and move forward. I have been keeping a low profile for a couple of reasons, one of the major ones being the potential for the dismantlers in our ranks to disrupt progress. It is my view that we need to develop a strong core group with common goals before we canvass the wider community for important issues.

This is in no way meant to imply that secrecy or any other devious plots are afoot, just that we'll never float anything if the naysayers are drilling holes in the bottom of our boat from the laying of the first plank... You can see, even from the debate here, that there are people in the hobby who are not just indifferent, but have the potential to be negative and damaging. If they have access to oxygen from day one, we'll never move forward. I would see the early NRKA as a highly flexible structure with room to move in any or all directions as circumstances dictate.

There has been talk of making one of the offices in the NRKA a paid position, to allow the dedication of sufficient time to keep the place in order and moving along. There is a huge amount to discuss, and I think I need to kick a few butts now to get things happening.

Back again soon...

Jamie.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

According to that document its only interstate movements that are affected? Its a trade ban. So people whos business is affected will be upset about this. Nobody needs to euthenase any animals. I can understand why they want to regulate these 9 species.


The bill would not affect possession or sales within a state. People would keep and retain responsibility for existing animals.


We are already regulated by our government.

 

[Jungletrans]

With Americans as they are l can see many [ most ] snake owners , being faced with the handover of their pets for destruction , choosing to release them into the wild instead .

 

[cris]

Let's say I'm wrong though, let's see some "written" proof that animal activists are trying to derail the Australian herp community? So far I've seen guns compared to snakes, now anacondas compared to scrubbies. As they say in the movies "show me the money!"

Pull your head out of the sand and read some of their websites, many of them are completely opposed to all pets, but they are more against keeping wildilfe. Sea kittens belong in the sea not in a fish tank

 

[beatlloydy]

I have read this topic through and there are a lot of diverging opinions. However, I do believe that herp keepers are a minority voice in politics. Most of my friends do not understand the joy of keeping herps. They think the only good snake is a dead snake.

Animal rights lobby groups are quite strong in Australia so it is only a matter of time before we are in their sights. Many of them dont understand that a well kept snake has all its needs met. I take mine out several times a week and additional exercise is achieved there. I also observe it at night and they can be quite active...In the wild many dont travel long distances but stay close to known food sources. Many activists would not understand this.

The best way to approach this is to work on the premise that banning of reptiles could happen. That way if we are prepared we wont have any surprises. I urge all to join a herp group. Also, raise this topic in the next meeting as there are a lot of very experienced people at dealing with lobbying who can present a sane voice to beaurocrats.

The amount of money generated via the legal trade in herps would be quite significant. Personally, over the last 4 months I have spent more than $3000 investing in enclosures and reptiles (got quite a few on order).
This money is all part of the economy and does help with creating jobs and income for people.

I also urge all to refrain from the temptation to illegally keep exotics as a) this gives a bad rep to herpkeepers in general and b) we have such a unique flora/fauna that exotics could potentially pose a threat as the conditions would suit many of them if enough escaped or were let loose.

If we try and abide by the rules set down by various DECC departments and keep our reps as pure as possible this gives other lobby groups less targets to aim at.
As the current regulations stand I feel they are adequate and even agree with the NSW DECC guidelines so long as they dont become mandatory. These guidelines are perfect for new keepers to gain some basic understanding of what is required when purchasing a new reptile.

We do need a united front at State and Federal level and not adopt a head in the sand attitude...but probably no need to panic at this stage.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Anita, respectfully, I have no understanding of what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that those who would threaten our hobby are reasoned, and reasonable, individuals...that they themselves are not organised into subtle but powerful and extensive lobby groups... that those with dishonourable or disruptive intentions exist only on our side of the fence? If we sit on our hands and be nice to everybody we will be steamrollered flatter than Sydney airport.

As far as a single representative body is concerned... a REPRESENTATIVE body is exactly what is envisaged. Problems just cannot be addressed satisfactorily by a rabble of smaller (read weaker) voices. Squeaky wheels have a habit of getting the oil - make no noise and the bearing may well seize before you know it's in trouble.

At best, any representative group can please most of the people some of the time, if you're lucky, maybe most of the time. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

Jamie.