Some Morelia's

[disasterpiece7.0]

o no there are Hybrid peple to .........Keep it pure lol .........im a Hybrid my dad is jamaican and my mum is english lol......

That's not a hybrid... same species buddy.

 

[Kris]

Now if one of your folks was a donkey wizz.........

 

[ihaveherps]

Disasterpiece and southside.... have a closer look, not all the animals are jags, just the first one. There is more to a jag than just pattern, there is also silver eyes, clear bellies.... if you look at the first pic between the coils the scutes are clean, silver eyes, the head pattern and dark cleft between the nostrils... the other 2 jag-like animals are just reduced patterned. You have to realise that there are hundreds if not thousands of jags across Europe and America, what you see on the international forums are the cream of the crop, and only represent a tiny percentage of whats out there. I highly doubt that these cream of the crop animals would make it to our shores, theres a strong enough market for them where they are, without having to go to all the trouble, the Jags sent through the customs gauntlet will most likely be the lesser quality animals.

Den, please bare with me, was cooked today at work, though I will still give it a shot. Most of us are aware of the new DNA research on the morelias. A key point when considering the validity of the results, boils down to what they define (as a percentage) the amount of genetic difference that would actually constitute a sub-species. From what I understand, there was slight differences between most of the (previously) recognised sub-species, though they deemed it not enough ( again as a percentage ) to sustain the amout of sub-species. One slight hurdle is that with out mapping the genome, there is no way to understand how big an impact these variations, however slight, have an overall impact on the constitution of the particular sub-species. Secondly, how do they determine as a a percentage, the difference required to constitue a sub-species? There is more than likely a pre-concieved formula applied, how that formula was derived is also arguable, seeing most similar studies would have been either human or agriculturally based, Im not too sure the mamillian, plant, or even insect (bees) formulas would hold when applied to such an ancient and largely un-evolved group as reptiles. If you really think about it, as a percentage, there is only somewhere between 3-6% of a difference in the genetic make-up of a human and an ape (maybe less, as I said Im tired), now to me, thats rather small percentage for a considerably large variation. I cannot help but to question that even a 0.2-0.5 % difference to such a primitive, yet near perfectly designed (thus not huge on the evolutionary necessity scale) would not constitute a sub-species.

On the whole, of all the sciences, taxonomy is the least finite.... its more a game of puff and ego. I personally try to keep my animals locale specific, as even as the taxonomy is swapped and changed, the animals from within a population will either get re-classified yet stay pure to the taxonomists, or at worst labelled as an intermediate form (so still pure). It takes the equation out of the taxonomists hands.

 

[Nagraj]

A key point when considering the validity of the results, boils down to what they define (as a percentage) the amount of genetic difference that would actually constitute a sub-species.

I'm not a geneticist by any means but I'm surprised to learn that "percentage" is even considered to be accurate in determining species. I would have thought it would be entirely dependent on specific genes at specific locations in a DNA strand?

 

[wizz]

That's not a hybrid... same species buddy.

lol you have not seen my dad :lol:

 

[PilbaraPythons]

ihaveherps
Brillant post.

Cheers Dave

 

[disasterpiece7.0]

I'm still sceptical. He said the first animal went over a B&W jungle, my B&Ws and a large number of the ones I've seen have silver eyes and are fairly well reduced in pattern. I've seen coastals and atherton jungles with clean bellies. Yes I agree that it's possible that it's a jag given that info, but It's also quite possible for it to not be a jag.

I like the other half of your post though. Well done there.

 

[Jason2]

the caramel coastals on the southercross site, are they just different coastals or jagish.
with the big stripe ect they look similar to a couple in the first lot of pic posted

 

[phatt01]

Now if one of your folks was a donkey wizz.........

Maybe his dad is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[Bono888]

They are beautiful looking pythons. My only problem is what ends up happening to all the others that are not so good looking and dont make the cut?

 

[draqonfly]

edit....... better to keep me mouth shut on this one

 

[-Matt-]

Its just a never ending battle and I dont know if theres ever gunna be a winner....

In selling it all comes down to honesty and lets face it the majority of people arent honest.

 

[m.punja]

In a way this is good news for true blue and people like hiself who have fantastic reputations for pure line animals. With pics of programes going around like this and people supporting it it strikes me as a worry and is making me more and more afraid to buy of no-named herpers. I'd hate to spend my money on some mongrol which means people like Rob will become in more high demand. The case of saying, well people will just be honest isn't going to work. Once everyone ends up with hybrids they wont care how badly they taint pure lines and if i'm chasing something pure I doubt they'll admit to owning hybrids and run the risk of not being able to sell their clutches. As some people may know I do own a hybrid and I didn't intentionally buy it and will not at all be breeding it. I have concidered time and time again to sell it but I don't want to be known to be someone who has sold a hybrid so i'll just keep the cross breed in an enclosure and never let it see any other reptile and run the risk of it breeding with other snakes.

For a while now I have been thinking that my I should be much much more selective about who I buy from and that is just getting worse. I'll probably never buy off someone without a good reputation again which isn't that big a deal when I know so many people buying wc stocks and we have the likes of pilbara pythons and reedys reptiles.

 

[rockman]

Nah just a name will do. Or dont you have the balls.

No offence intended.

Tell us what you really think Rob ! .

Cheers

 

[wizz]

sorry .......but the same thing is happening with a lot of vens......i no not on a Morelia thread....

 

[cris]

Den, please bare with me, was cooked today at work, though I will still give it a shot. Most of us are aware of the new DNA research on the morelias. A key point when considering the validity of the results, boils down to what they define (as a percentage) the amount of genetic difference that would actually constitute a sub-species. From what I understand, there was slight differences between most of the (previously) recognised sub-species, though they deemed it not enough ( again as a percentage ) to sustain the amout of sub-species. One slight hurdle is that with out mapping the genome, there is no way to understand how big an impact these variations, however slight, have an overall impact on the constitution of the particular sub-species. Secondly, how do they determine as a a percentage, the difference required to constitue a sub-species? There is more than likely a pre-concieved formula applied, how that formula was derived is also arguable, seeing most similar studies would have been either human or agriculturally based, Im not too sure the mamillian, plant, or even insect (bees) formulas would hold when applied to such an ancient and largely un-evolved group as reptiles. If you really think about it, as a percentage, there is only somewhere between 3-6% of a difference in the genetic make-up of a human and an ape (maybe less, as I said Im tired), now to me, thats rather small percentage for a considerably large variation. I cannot help but to question that even a 0.2-0.5 % difference to such a primitive, yet near perfectly designed (thus not huge on the evolutionary necessity scale) would not constitute a sub-species.

On the whole, of all the sciences, taxonomy is the least finite.... its more a game of puff and ego. I personally try to keep my animals locale specific, as even as the taxonomy is swapped and changed, the animals from within a population will either get re-classified yet stay pure to the taxonomists, or at worst labelled as an intermediate form (so still pure). It takes the equation out of the taxonomists hands.

This is exactly why mixed locality hybrids are pretty much the same as intraspecific hybrids. To work out what should be enough differance you would need to look at many factors and also get enough ppl to agree on what a subspecies actually is. The amount of maths and genetics that would need to be involved in working out what is and isnt a real subspecies would be quite daunting i would imagine. I cant see taxonomy becoming anything close to being solid in the next 10 years.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

I think the solution to this kind of anarchy would be to have 2 different licensing systems.

License Type 1.
one for wildlife being kept as locality type .ie for scientific purpose to help protect our current bloodlines .

License Type 2 .
For mixed locality pythons only for the hobbyist .
Under this license Carpets Pythons from different sub species can be bred together and maybe the childrens group ?
But all other species are out of bounds for Hybridisation, etc

But under the hobbyist licence you cannot own locality pure forms .

Same goes for the for the Wildlife locality license, only locality forms can be kept from long established lines .

Under this agreement all parties would be happy.
But for me as I breed same locality and mixed locality jungles ?
myself and others would be the looser not being able to keep both types on the one licence etc.

Now I am totally against hybrids .
But I will not attack another person rights to choose what they do in there hobby or business in relation to reptiles .etc
Each state have regulations is place and these guidelines should be followed .

In time this simple solution may take place .or maybe not ??

Now should we vote on this idea by poll .

cheers
Roger

 

[mcloughlin2]

Hey Roger,

Problem is DECC will not have the man power to enforce both licencing systems. Seems to be a sound solution apart from the obvious problems of them being under - staffed.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

So when you have a type one license, you may not keep Albinos? As this is an unnatural form of the locality? Think about it, they fall under the second class of license type that you are suggesting. The government will never be able to control what goes on in the reptile hobby. They also have more important things to worry about, like the amount of drugs coming over the border to name just one. There are very few lines that can be traced back to their origin. A handfull I would guess. As the hobby started out as an underground operation with people keeping reptiles that were wild caught. That is why these so called pure blood lines would never be used to repopulate wild populations. There was never any science involved when the first original animals were collected. And I dont believe it when people claim to know exactly where the animals are from as they would never confess to catching the animals illegally. It is just too easy to launder snakes onto your books. This is just the nature of the beast I suppose. In an ideal world the hobby would have started where it is now, wild caught snakes of known origin. And people knowing how important it is to keep locality animals pure. People breeding hybrids happened 20 yaeras ago and not because they wanted to, but because they just did not know any better. There is still some control that can be applied by these newer generation Hybrid breeders. They can at least tell people what is in the mix. What about the thousands of Morelias out there that are crosses, that were never intentionally bred as their ancestry were of an unknown origin? This topic will be debated to death, As the only answer is not to breed them. But most of the damage has been done by the generations before us. We can just try to educate people by being 100% honest when selling our offspring, about their origins and what might be in the mix.
Regards

 

[TrueBlue]

Rockman, hahahaha,
I think its moreliahunter with a different user name and the animals are jags. As has been said jags come in many different forms these days and these are just average ones. Im sure he has much better ones but posting pics of them would just be to oblvious. Thats what i really think. hahaha.